Complaint to freeholder re another leaseholder in block

[Ducatiman]

Hello Everyone,

I own a flat in a block of 4, all are Leashold flats and there is a Management Company in place.

The flat below, have sub-tennants in it, the owner of the flat rents it out.

We have a shared garden in the back.
The tennants below never put there rubbish out for weeks and it piles up into 10 bags of rubbish before they decide to put it in the wheelie bins and put it out to be collected, Also they have now decided to buy a dog, which when they are there barks its head off all day and is becoming a nuisense.

Do i have any options ?? Can i make a formal complaint to the Freeholder about the rubbish situation and dog baking??

Thanks everybody, advice would be much appreciated

Martin

[mind the gap]

Do i have any options ?? Can i make a formal complaint to the Freeholder about the rubbish situation and dog baking??



Dog baking is bad.:eek:

Definitely complain. To the RSPCA if no-one else.

Seriously, yes, complain to Freeholder about leaseholder of the rented-out flat. They (LH) must ensure their STs abide by their tenancy contract (which might not even allow pets anyway) and there are probably clauses in the lease for the block of flats which govern noise levels, disposal of rubbish, etc. Presumably STs are bound by these just as much as any of the LHs.

[Ducatiman]

Hi, Thanks for that quick response. If i did make a formal complaint to the Freeholder, what would be the process ??

Cheers

[mind the gap]

Hi, Thanks for that quick response. If i did make a formal complaint to the Freeholder, what would be the process ??

Cheers

Pass. Write them a letter explaining clearly what you are unhappy about and what you would like them to do about it.

By the way, have you tried talking to the FH of the flat concerned first?

[Ducatiman]

Sorry mate !!! :o) I have spoken to the owner of the flat about the tennants in the past but nothing ever seems to change, thats why i want to go straight to the top so to speak !!!

Thanks again!

[tom999]

To force lessor, you need a binding covenant. What does lease's 'Lessor's Covenants' section say about breach of covenant?

For example:
(1) Does it covenant with lessee to enforce against other lessees, or, oblige lessor to enforce against an offending lessee at request or cost of a complaining lessee?
(2) What does it say about not causing noise, or nuisance?

[mind the gap]

To force lessor, you need a binding covenant. What does lease's 'Lessor's Covenants' section say about breach of covenant?

For example:
(1) Does it covenant with lessee to enforce against other lessees, or, oblige lessor to enforce against an offending lessee at request or cost of a complaining lessee?
(2) What does it say about not causing noise, or nuisance?

Are such covenants not pretty standard in the leases of blocks of flats, tom?

[Ducatiman]

Hi Tom,

Not sure what it states in the lease, i am new to this lease hold business, i will have a read through it,

Thanks for the response !

Cheers

[mind the gap]

Hi Tom,

Not sure what it states in the lease, i am new to this lease hold business, i will have a read through it,

Thanks for the response !

Cheers

I'm not being funny, but might it not have been a good idea to read it before you signed it? Someone I know discovered the other day that when she bought her business premises 10 years ago (one unit in a long building which was being sold off in chunks by the original owner), she had agreed to pay half of all the costs of repairing the roof and guttering of a flat 3 doors down (and of all the other properties, I think). She claims not to have realised that was what she was agreeing to at the time, but she showed me the lease and it said exactly that.

[Ducatiman]

Hi mate,

I have read throught it, but not in intense detail. My solicitor had a look through it when i bought the flat.I think its quite a normal lease, its a 999 year lease.

Due to complications, i didnt even sign the lease until 2 years after i bought the flat !

[westminster]

I'm not being funny, but might it not have been a good idea to read it before you signed it?
It's meant to be the conveyancing solicitor who fills you in on the relevant points of the lease, in plain English; a lot of leases use archaic legal language no layperson could be expected to understand. I don't think I've ever been shown a lease for perusal before buying a leasehold - but if I ever buy one again I intend to ask to see it first.

[mind the gap]

Hi mate,

I have read throught it, but not in intense detail. My solicitor had a look through it when i bought the flat.I think its quite a normal lease, its a 999 year lease.

Due to complications, i didnt even sign the lease until 2 years after i bought the flat !

Why was that? (Apologies if that sounds nosy, I'm just interested!)

[westminster]

Do i have any options ?? Can i make a formal complaint to the Freeholder about the rubbish situation and dog baking??

If the lease says that leaseholders can't cause a nuisance or noise (or something similar) then you complain the freeholder and they will go after the offender - in theory, anyway.

[Ducatiman]

Ok, cheers Westminister !

Mind the gap, the reason i didnt sign the lease until 2 years later was due to the incompetence of the sellers solicitor apparently, i cant remember know !

Never buy another flat as long as i live !!!!!

[mind the gap]

Ok, cheers Westminister !

Mind the gap, the reason i didnt sign the lease until 2 years later was due to the incompetence of the sellers solicitor apparently, i cant remember know !

Never buy another flat as long as i live !!!!!

Sorry to hear that. I must admit I have never been tempted to buy a leasehold flat (whether to live in myself or to let out), especially one which has been converted rather than newly built. Too stressful trying to fit in and get on with lots of other people all with different priorities? Noise levels? Even more stressful trying to get your tenants to fit in if they are disinclined to do so. Or am I being irrational?

[Ducatiman]

Cheers Mind the gap.

Here's a curve ball for you. The owners of 2 of the other flats have decided to try and buy the Freehold on the block. This includes the owner of the flat who's tennants are causing the problems. Where do you think i would stand legally if they did buy the freehold, if i complained to the freeholder, who would be the owner of the flat in question !!!

[westminster]

Sorry to hear that. I must admit I have never been tempted to buy a leasehold flat (whether to live in myself or to let out), especially one which has been converted rather than newly built. Too stressful trying to fit in and get on with lots of other people all with different priorities? Noise levels? Even more stressful trying to get your tenants to fit in if they are disinclined to do so. Or am I being irrational?
You have the luxury of choice, my dear. In London, it's usually not affordable to buy a freehold in the area you want.

[westminster]

Cheers Mind the gap.

Here's a curve ball for you. The owners of 2 of the other flats have decided to try and buy the Freehold on the block. This includes the owner of the flat who's tennants are causing the problems. Where do you think i would stand legally if they did buy the freehold, if i complained to the freeholder, who would be the owner of the flat in question !!!

It would be in your interests to join in the freehold purchase, so you have a share in the f/h and the decisions made.

[mind the gap]

You have the luxury of choice, my dear. In London, it's usually not affordable to buy a freehold in the area you want.

Actually, I think it would have been extremely antisocial of us to live in a block of flats, with our three music-obsessed and very vocal teenagers. We'd all have ASBOs within hours of signing the lease and endless stern visits from Freehold Reversioners and Lessees and other scary-sounding types.

[westminster]

Yeah, thats what i thought !!! (
Seriously, it's worth it. If you have a very long lease it won't cost that much. If you have a shorter lease then it'll be not much different to the cost of extending the lease. I would love to exercise leasehold enfranchisement for my 'block' but I'm stuck because there are too many apathetic leaseholders - idiots because most of them are on 71 year leases :rolleyes:

[Ducatiman]

I am not too sure though.There are 990 years left on the lease, its a virtual lease and not really worth that much, maybe a grand plus costs. I dont really think it would add any value to the flat in the long term, although obviously it may be more appealing to buyers when it is sold. To be honest, the block of 4 flats is in a very sought after area in Chester, the land is probably worth more than the 4 flats put together !!!

[westminster]

Actually, I think it would have been extremely antisocial of us to live in a block of flats, with our three music-obsessed and very vocal teenagers. We'd all have ASBOs within hours of signing the lease and endless stern visits from Freehold Reversioners and Lessees and other scary-sounding types.

I'd need to spend around £1 million to practice such altruism. I content myself with projecting evil telepathic thoughts towards my downstairs neighbours.

[mind the gap]

I'd need to spend around £1 million to practice such altruism. I content myself with projecting evil telepathic thoughts towards my downstairs neighbours.

I suppose there have to be some compensations for living in the middle of nowhere. We can explore our differences of opinion as loudly as we like and play the saxophone or Elvis Costello with impunity. Only the sheep can hear us most of the time.

[westminster]

I am not too sure though.There are 990 years left on the lease, its a virtual lease and not really worth that much, maybe a grand plus costs. I dont really think it would add any value to the flat in the long term, although obviously it may be more appealing to buyers when it is sold. To be honest, the block of 4 flats is in a very sought after area in Chester, the land is probably worth more than the 4 flats put together !!!
Regardless of anything else, you are still better off joining in the purchase and having some control than being at the mercy of the other two leaseholders, and it sounds as if it won't cost that much to join in. Do it. And speaking as someone who has bought many leaseholds, I see it as a definite advantage if it comes with a share of the freehold.

[Ducatiman]

I envy you mind the gap; I have now come to the conclusion that I don’t want any neighbours at all!!!! I could listen to Zepplelin to my hearts content !!!!

[Ducatiman]

Ok westminister, i will take your advice, at the back of my mind, i did think that would be the best course of action ! Thankyou

[westminster]

I suppose there have to be some compensations for living in the middle of nowhere. We can explore our differences of opinion as loudly as we like and play the saxophone or Elvis Costello with impunity. Only the sheep can hear us most of the time.
You don't know how much I long for a freehold, even a terraced one, without some **** of a LL.*

I'll send you the link to my anti-freeholder blog one day.

* All asterisks so that Jeffrey doesn't complain of an implied obscenity conjured by first and last letters.

[mind the gap]

You don't know how much I long for a freehold, even a terraced one, without some **** of a LL.*

I'll send you the link to my anti-freeholder blog one day.

* All asterisks so that Jeffrey doesn't complain of an implied obscenity conjured by first and last letters.

Yes, I suppose all asterisks is preferable to a scantily-clad expletive trying to pretend it isn't one. At least I can supply my own choice of obscenity. Jeffrey, complain? Never :D

[Gordon999]

You can complain to the freeholder if the flat is committing a breach of the lease. ( e.g water leakage into your flat )

If it is a noise problem during the night, then you may be better off complaining to your local council.

[mind the gap]

Not seen that film Mind the Gap, it seems a little too esoteric for me ;o)

Nothing esoteric about sitting on a roof sabotaging a miserable git's TV viewing! And it does have English subtitles.

[Mars Mug]

Can i make a formal complaint to the Freeholder about the rubbish situation and dog baking??


Dog baking is bad.

Not always;

http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20081124-bakerywallace.jpg

[mind the gap]

I love that picture :) Thanks, Mars Mug.

[Mars Mug]

I was hoping it would make you smile ;)

[Ducatiman]

Cool guys !!! :o)

[mind the gap]

Cool guys !!!

That's us! :cool:

(Or did you mean W & G?!)

[jeffrey]

There are 990 years left on the lease, its a virtual lease.
No, it's a real lease. What did you imagine 'virtual' to mean, please?

[thevaliant]

I would love to exercise leasehold enfranchisement for my 'block' but I'm stuck because there are too many apathetic leaseholders - idiots because most of them are on 71 year leases :rolleyes:

I presume you have extended? You're right. People are idiots. They don't realise that once a lease drops below 80 years they need to start thinking about extending.

Heard from a friend of a friend how one elderly lady ignored the problem till she got a letter from her freeholder saying "Move out". Her lease had expired.

[jeffrey]

Heard from a friend of a friend how one elderly lady ignored the problem till she got a letter from her freeholder saying "Move out". Her lease had expired.
NO! That's incorrect. Once her long lease expired, T had a lawful right to remain but as a Standard Assured Tenant (paying market rent!)

[thevaliant]

NO! That's incorrect. Once her long lease expired, T had a lawful right to remain but as a Standard Assured Tenant (paying market rent!)

I stand corrected! As I say it was 'friend of a friend' so probably not getting full story. I think the family were more gutted as they were working on the assumption the property was freehold and therefore a nice estate sum was due on elderly lady's death.

[jeffrey]

NO! That's incorrect. Once her long lease expired, T had a lawful right to remain but as a Standard Assured Tenant (paying market rent!)
Or, if it was pre-1989, it would have been continued as a Rent Act 1977 tenancy.

[antonio111]

Being that your flat is on such a long lease, is the freeholder going to be in the slightest bit interested about your problem tenants?

[jeffrey]

Being that your flat is on such a long lease, is the freeholder going to be in the slightest bit interested about your problem tenants?
That's wrong.
1. Ignore sub-tenants (ST); focus on leaseholds.
2. Each flat-owner (T) is a lessee of L.
3. Most likely, each lease contains obligation on L to enforce covenants against each T, if so required by another T.
4. Actions and omissions of ST are imputed to T.
5. So a complaining T1, aggrieved at ST in T2's flat, can make L enforce covenants on T2.

[quarterday]

Thanks for the typo. I cant stop laughing the more I think about the dog - baking.


Hot dog!!!!!!!!!!!


But seriously, the local Authority Environmental Health Officer would I am sure be delighted to hear from you regarding rubbish