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andyptrav
09-11-2009, 14:23 PM
I took out as tennant an ASH tennancy 23/09/2008 at £1,500 a month and it was renewed 23/03/2009 for a further six months after which I remained in occupation so I assume that on 23/09/2008 it became a Periodic Tennancy.

Early October I advised I would leave 07/12/2009 and this date was agreed. I was vaguely aware that he should have put the deposit in some sort of deposit scheme but did not previously worry or persue him about it.

However the Landlord is a property developer and a director of a company in liquidation with £26,000 in CCJ's although the house is his personally. He is also an aggressive bully with weapons grade charm and I was thus worried about my deposit so at the last rent day I only paid 2 weeks rent such that I had paid in full to 07 December taking into account the deposit. Well the Landlord telephoned me and was pretty angry to say the least and demanded the extra £750 rental shortfall and said the deposit must not be used for the rent despite the fact he knows we take care of the house and have improved the garden. I have also allowed agents to bring new prospective tenants around so they and he know it is OK. He said I may "take the carpets" to which I replied: "Oh come on, you know where I work, that I have assets and the house will still be fine and in any case I believe the deposit should be in an escrow account and what happens if you went bankrupt owing me my money." He then told me: "You have a bad attitude." so I told him to F off.

He is, of course right about the rent being due but he has not placed the deposit in an approved scheme.

1) It seems to me that he must immediately pay my deposit back anyway or can he now at this very late stage put it in an approved scheme?

I am about to demand it back together with the 3x penalty. I have reviewed several threads here.

2) However, as far as the windfall 3x deposit is concerned it seems to me from reading the act that he will only have to pay this if he is dumb enough not to return it (by even the day before the court hearing) i.e. he has to still owe the deposit AT the hearing. Is this correct or has he dropped himself in for 3x deposit?

I would have to proceed (under the recent guidance rules) using section 8 (N208) against him but he could persue me for the unpaid rent using moneyclaim online (N1) so I reckon he would win earlier and then just pay me back so as to avoid the 3x penalty. What do you experienced experts think?

jeffrey
09-11-2009, 14:53 PM
What is an ASH, please?

NoMoreFaith
09-11-2009, 15:05 PM
What is an ASH, please?

One would assume Assured Shorthold, but I can't help but respect the refusal to make assumptions!

My short answer to the OP is, you should pay the rent arrears rather than make an assumption there will be a problem with the deposit.

I wouldn't HOPE to get 3x the rent, as you point out, he can protect the bond before the hearing to remove the likelihood of that award, but then I would guess that taking action is to ensure the deposit is protected for fair arbitration in the case of a dispute, rather than to make any gain from the action.

westminster
09-11-2009, 15:29 PM
I took out as tennant an ASH tennancy 23/09/2008 at £1,500 a month and it was renewed 23/03/2009 for a further six months after which I remained in occupation so I assume that on 23/09/2009 it became a Periodic Tennancy.
Correct.


Early October I advised I would leave 07/12/2009 and this date was agreed.
Agreed with LL? I ask because, on the face of it, you gave incorrect notice. In a periodic tenancy, your notice to end the tenancy must be at least one month, and expire at the end of a rental period. Your periodic tenancy began 23rd Sep 09, so the periods are 23rd - 22nd of the month. Your notice should have expired 22nd December (or 22nd November if you'd been willing to move out earlier than 7th Dec). If your LL agreed to allow you to end the tenancy on 7th December, and not 22nd December, he effectively let you off around 2 weeks rent.


I was thus worried about my deposit so at the last rent day I only paid 2 weeks rent such that I had paid in full to 07 December taking into account the deposit......
He is, of course right about the rent being due but he has not placed the deposit in an approved scheme.
Your breach of contract is not excused by LL's failure to comply with deposit protection.


It seems to me that he must immediately pay my deposit back anyway or can he now at this very late stage put it in an approved scheme? The DPS may accept it if the tenancy is still current.


However, as far as the windfall 3x deposit is concerned it seems to me from reading the act that he will only have to pay this if he is dumb enough not to return it (by even the day before the court hearing) i.e. he has to still owe the deposit AT the hearing. Is this correct or has he dropped himself in for 3x deposit?
The 3 x deposit sanction under s.214 is not a "windfall" - it's interesting that you regard it as that. :rolleyes:

There is no guarantee you will win your claim if LL returns the deposit or protects it late and has a decent advocate to argue his defence. Various judges have interpreted the statute in various ways and claims have gone both ways. Be aware that if you lose you are exposed to the LL's legal costs.

Another defence the LL might use is that there is no longer any deposit as you withheld rent in order for the deposit to be used as rent.


I would have to proceed (under the recent guidance rules) using section 8 (N208) against him but he could persue me for the unpaid rent using moneyclaim online (N1) It's also possible he might make a counterclaim (assuming he does not argue that the deposit was used for rent) in order to take advantage of your exposure to his costs. He might also claim for rent up to 22nd December if you cannot prove he agreed to a surrender on 7th December.

andyptrav
09-11-2009, 17:08 PM
What is an ASH, please?

Assured Shorthold Tenancy, I was too lazy to write it in full.

tom999
09-11-2009, 17:19 PM
Agree with NoMoreFaith & westminster. Pay your rent arrears before even considering pursuing the deposit protection route. There have been many cases where the tenant has tried for the 3x deposit and ended up paying the full court costs, as a result of losing the case.

andyptrav
09-11-2009, 17:54 PM
Thanks everybody.

Re: the date of leaving. Landlord agreed the date verbally and has acknowledged the date by email. Maybe he's getting 2 weeks extra rent rather than 2 weeks less. Also his asking rent now is the same as I pay but through an agent so he is bound to get a lot less, no one around here these days will pay the asking price and the agent will take their cut. 10%?

Agreed 2 wrongs don't make a right. Should I offer to pay the rent if he protects my deposit and supplies the proof?

I really don't want this guy owing me any money. I would rather do nothing as let's be honest there is sweet FA he can do about it as we will be quits on 7 December. I will pay for an independent inspector to witness the property condition on 7 December.

I called the 3x a windfall as it appears some have received it and some not and despite the Landlord being a twat I have to say it is hardly a fair sanction.

andyptrav
09-11-2009, 20:51 PM
I am NOT the voice of reason on this site, and I guess many readers will understand your fustrations - but there is a word in your last post which should not be there. Can you guess which one? If you still have the option to edit the post, may I suggest you do so before the Mod deletes it, or more importantly, before you offend someone who is trying to help you.

I cannot edit the post so I appologise to anyone offended and trust the mods will delete the word. I won't be dishonest and claim it is a typo, I have obviously been viewing too many forums where bad language is all too common -- even The Telegraph website has worse four letter words unmoderated.

Thank you for picking me up on this before I made any further fool of myself.

jeffrey
10-11-2009, 13:35 PM
Even David Cameron uses the word 'twat'- so it seems to have ceased to be classed as offensive.