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stuco
21-01-2008, 14:27 PM
Hi all,

Further to my last thread of s8 eviction, the tenant has now left the property without us having to involve bailiffs. My next problem is how do I enforce the part of the judgement that says he has to pay us the rent arrears.

When we gave T a copy of the PO we also attached a letter detailing how he was to pay arrears (£100 a month until cleared) but (surprise, surprise) the first date of payment has come and gone and no payment appeared in my bank. I now want to take it to the next step. We have done everything through PCOL and I'm sure there must be a way of now instructing the courts further, but not sure how to go about it. Any help much appreciated.

SALL
27-02-2008, 22:14 PM
I'm filling in a possesion claim online, just want to check if the details I'm entering are enough?


Reason for requiring Possesion:

I require possesion because the tenant in rent arears of £XXXX (SOME thousand Some hundred and ninty pounds) being over 7 and a half month’s rent arrears.

The tenant has been in rent arears throughout the last 2 years of her tanancy and has not been upto date with the rent due.

Rent payments have always been late.

The tanant has not made any rent payments since xx/12/2007.


Steps you have taken to recover arears:

I have contacted the tenant on numerous occasions by phone and visiting the property in person.
Each time I was promised that the rent will be paid on a certain day but the promises never matearialized.
I have been unable to contact the tenant in the recent months as the tenant is not answering her phone or opening her door.


is this enough? obviously i can explain properly at the hearing.

Surrey
27-02-2008, 22:27 PM
What notices have you served on your tenant? Include details and dates. State what grounds you have put on any Section 8 you have issued.

You might want to double-check your spellings as well, these judges can be terribly snooty about that kind of thing.

SALL
28-02-2008, 07:10 AM
Yeah will do a spell check once at the information is ready, was getting all the info ready first.

Do I need to gove notice info in these sections too? as there is a section about what notice I served , the date I served it and method of service.

btw I served a Section 8 notice.

Ericthelobster
28-02-2008, 07:57 AM
I have contacted the tenant on numerous occasions by phone and visiting the property in person.
Each time I was promised that the rent will be paid on a certain day but the promises never matearialized.
I have been unable to contact the tenant in the recent months as the tenant is not answering her phone or opening her door.Do you have any more info about any of the above? All very vague in terms of dates, number of occasions. Keeping a running log of all this stuff as it happens is ideal, but without that can be difficult to do retrospectively. Do you have an itemised phone bill?

SALL
28-02-2008, 10:32 AM
Hi Eric,

I've got some dated when I contacted her in the last couple of months. other then that I didn't make a record of it. and no phone is not itemised.

But does that really matters? I have full list of payments she has made over the last 2 years and a statement of how the arears have arose.

btw do i need bank statements that show recieved payments? or having a printed list of all payments and amounts enough?

Surrey
28-02-2008, 13:05 PM
Hi Eric,

I've got some dated when I contacted her in the last couple of months. other then that I didn't make a record of it. and no phone is not itemised.

But does that really matters? I have full list of payments she has made over the last 2 years and a statement of how the arears have arose.

btw do i need bank statements that show recieved payments? or having a printed list of all payments and amounts enough?

A list of what payments you have received should be enough, but if you want to prove that you didn't receive payment when it was due, you might need to provide bank statements (with anything not relevant crossed out with black marker). I had a case where I copied every bank statement I had, blacked out all the figures in the Balance column, blacked out all the figures and names to do with payments out, and for the remaining items, which were payments in, I left the names for all payments in and blacked out any figures for things that were not relevant to the case (e.g. my wages I left the name of the payee but blacked out the amount - none of anyone else's business how little I was getting paid!) The judge was happy with that.

I doubt you'd have to provide all that at this stage, wait and see what her argument is. If she DOESN'T say that she paid, then you won't need to go to all that trouble.

Ericthelobster
28-02-2008, 18:32 PM
A list of what payments you have received should be enough, but if you want to prove that you didn't receive payment when it was due, you might need to provide bank statements (with anything not relevant crossed out with black marker). I had a case where I copied every bank statement I had, blacked out all That sounds a prudent measure... Just wondering, if a tenant doesn't state in advance of a court hearing that he's going to claim he's paid when he hasn't, can he just do so on the day? What I'm getting at is, is it necessary to go to the palaver of doing your bank-statement thing on the off chance that the tenant tries it on, or if you haven't heard so before the hearing then there's no need to bother.

BTW, how do you defend against "I paid the rent in cash and now the LL's nicked it" which is what a brighter tenant might come up with...?

Grange
28-02-2008, 18:41 PM
BTW, how do you defend against "I paid the rent in cash and now the LL's nicked it" which is what a brighter tenant might come up with...?

So where's your receipt then?

vik2001
29-05-2008, 10:00 AM
using PCOL, can it be used for a section 21 notice, or is it only for rent arrears??

porridge
29-05-2008, 12:24 PM
using PCOL, can it be used for a section 21 notice, or is it only for rent arrears??


Again, experience tells me to deal directly with court, much easier to deal face to face with the court staff, they can check your paper work for you (although they can't offer legal advice).

vik2001
29-05-2008, 13:29 PM
Again, experience tells me to deal directly with court, much easier to deal face to face with the court staff, they can check your paper work for you (although they can't offer legal advice).

what forms should i get N5 or should i get the accelerated process. how much quicker is the accelerated process??

porridge
29-05-2008, 13:40 PM
what forms should i get N5 or should i get the accelerated process. how much quicker is the accelerated process??

This is the form you need N5B (accelerated procedure)

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n5b_0406.pdf

ive PM'd you on how to complete it

its a no blame procedure on in most case doesn't require your attendance

vik2001
29-05-2008, 14:02 PM
This is the form you need N5B (accelerated procedure)

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/n5b_0406.pdf

ive PM'd you on how to complete it

its a no blame procedure on in most case doesn't require your attendance


thanks alot :) appreicated. im on it now.
once i fill it in, do i wait till the expiry date as stated on the s21 before i hand this in to my local county court, or can i hand it in before the expiry date to the court, and will they except it??

jeffrey
29-05-2008, 14:08 PM
thanks alot :) appreicated. im on it now.
once i fill it in, do i wait till the expiry date as stated on the s21 before i hand this in to my local county court, or can i hand it in before the expiry date to the court, and will they except it??

The Court might be unhappy if you use no:
a. spellcheck; nor
b. capital letters!
Sorry, but they do expect accuracy. Litigation is serious stuff, with scary consequences, unlike txtspkg ppl wh dnt lk vwls.

vik2001
29-05-2008, 14:12 PM
also i served the s21 via hand directly to the tenant, not via post. do i need to fill in a N215 for pargraph 7??

porridge
29-05-2008, 14:14 PM
thanks alot :) appreicated. im on it now.
once i fill it in, do i wait till the expiry date as stated on the s21 before i hand this in to my local county court, or can i hand it in before the expiry date to the court, and will they except it??


I would wait until after the expiry date, (they may surprise you and leave) you might pay out £150 court costs for no reason at all. I would personally write a letter to the tenants arranging the check out procedure and then wait and see, in the meantime have the form filled out in readiness to hand in on the next day after the expiry of the tenancy.

or

test Jeffries theory

take it down the court and see if you can submit it now

albyskoons
06-08-2008, 16:10 PM
I've never had to seek a possession order before,.. but my experience of PCOL was a good one.

Within 12 hours of pressing 'submit' I had my court date.
Then just turned up with all the paperwork on that date.

The progress tracking was quite nice too, in that you can see if the defendant has filed a defence and you can also see when the judgements are raised - which happened about 14 days after the hearing for me.

You can also select different options based on the progress of the claim, such as the various warrants or submitting additional documentation.

Paul_W
07-08-2008, 12:46 PM
Then just turned up with all the paperwork on that date.



Did this mean the standard court forms or just your copies of evidence to support your claim?

SALL
07-08-2008, 13:00 PM
Did this mean the standard court forms or just your copies of evidence to support your claim?

When you enter the information online about the claim, it is similar to N5 form, you also need to fill out history of arrears. Then you take other documentations to court, i'e notices you served, tenancy agreement etc.

jasonmccaul
22-08-2008, 09:58 AM
Hello,

I have a very awkward tenant who has refused to leave after being served a S21 that expired on wednesday. Hence I have since used the PCOL site to submit a possesion claim. My tenant currently owes me £2250 and this is stated on the PCOL entry, however and despite numerours web searches and reading I am still unsure if the court will simply grant me possesion or if they will grant possesion and an order for the tenant to pay. I would appreciate any advice on this and if it is only a possesion then what procedure I need to go through to also try and reclaim the unpaid rents.

Thanks

Jason

Ericthelobster
22-08-2008, 10:30 AM
I have a very awkward tenant who has refused to leave after being served a S21 that expired on wednesday. Hence I have since used the PCOL site to submit a possesion claim. My tenant currently owes me £2250 and this is stated on the PCOL entry, however and despite numerours web searches and reading I am still unsure if the court will simply grant me possesion or if they will grant possesion and an order for the tenant to pay. I would appreciate any advice on this and if it is only a possesion then what procedure I need to go through to also try and reclaim the unpaid rents.Never used PCOL myself, but presumably it's the same as seeking possession via S21 through the normal court? And you certainly can't include a claim for money through the S21 route; you'd have to do that using a small claim -ie http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk

PaulF
22-08-2008, 18:59 PM
If the unpaid rent represents two months or more why aren't you using the S.8 Grounds 8,10,11 route where you can have the amount owing assessed at the same time? You can't use the APP but must go the "normal" route.

jasonmccaul
26-08-2008, 10:52 AM
I assume as part of the PCOL application I need to provide evidence of an S21 and I would also have thought I would be required to provide a copy of the tenancy agreement. The website does not seem to allow upload of attachments so I can only assume I need to post these to the court which rather defeats the object of having an 'online' service.

Can anyone confirm this is actually the case or if there is an alternative way of sending these. Given I dont live in the UK using post to send such documents is far from ideal.

Thanks

Jason

mustard
22-09-2008, 12:55 PM
I though I would just put down my PCOL experience as the official advice is lacking and not many people have experienced it yet.

When rent was 2 months in arrears I served section 8 on grounds 8, 10 and 11 (can't use PCOL for S21)
2 weeks later I did the PCOl application (£100)
I was instantly given a court date (5 weeks wait)
You can submit correspondence online and in writing if you need to amend anything.
Went to court today and 1 of the 3 defendants turned up.
The judge wanted to see the tenancy agreement, the copy of the section 8 and a list of arrears calculated to the hearing date.
I was awarded possession as of today as the dependent said no-one was living there.
The defendants were given a CCJ for arrears plus costs.

It was my first time in court but it was quite straightforward.

davidjohnbutton
22-09-2008, 14:24 PM
It is a relative breeze if you get all your paperwork right as a landlord and you take the rent schedule up to date together with the originals of the tenancy agreement and some proofs of what has been done to try and extract the arrears.

I have had tenants turn up to PCOL hearings and dispute the arrears - because I had written to the tenants before the hearing and asked them to prove that my arrears schedule was incorrect in any way, the judge took my concise arrears schedule as totally accurate - in one case the judge extended the possession date to six weeks hence because the female half had recently (2 weeks before) had a baby which we were totally unaware of before the defence disputing the arrears was filed.

It often amazes me how tenants will blithly sit there and dispute their arrears which often run into several hundred if not thousands of £ when it is clearly obvious they have no way of avoiding a mandatory "two month arrears" possession order. I always take the line "Well, sir or madam, I wrote to the defendant tenants the day after receiving their defence and asked them to provide proof or receipts to show that they only owe £500 instead of the £2000 I allege they owe - here are copies of the two letters with receipts of posting - I regret I received no reply" - that usually dispels that defence!

One tenant was so thick they admitted in the defence they owed £700 on a monthly rent of £350 (they owed £2100) and at court admitted they still owed £700 - that was enough for the judge to make the mandatory PO on that admission alone - in fact the judge awarded rent arrears of the full £2100 plus costs.

In all cases, I make up a bundle (1 for judge, 1 for me, 1 for each defendant and possible representative and 1 spare) and hand these out - it contains a copy of the rent agreement, copy of the S8 notice, arrears schedule and the aforesaid letters and copy of the proofs of posting. It helps me, helps the judge and usually destroys arguments from the tenant defendant.

mustard
22-09-2008, 14:50 PM
It wasn't a total breeze and was made easier by the defendants not being able to dispute the claim. The defence was, he had moved out and told the remaining tenant to give notice but the judge calmly explained that as no notice was given, he was still liable for the rent.

One of the worst things about the experience was not being able to get procedural information from the court or the PCOL helpline. I wasn't sure until I got there that I had to bring documents with me rather than submit in advance or if I would be awarded possession only or if the defendants would get a CCJ. I was told by the court that I was only claiming for possession and the defendants wouldn't be told to pay arrears.

davidjohnbutton
22-09-2008, 17:18 PM
One of the best pieces of advice I can give anyone using the PCOL system is "assume nothing" and take the view that the tenant will try every ploy possible at the hearing, so you must be ready to counter every porky that the tenant or his solicitor/rep/friend/whatever tells. Have proof of rent arrears in a tabular form - Date. Rent Due. Paid. Total Arrears. Copies of bank statements if the tenant pays direct to bank also help.

You only need the judge to consider that there were 2 months arrears or more at the time of service of the notice, and that there are 2 months or more arrears at the court hearing date with all payments and rent charged up to the court hearing date. It does not matter if the two figures are different or whether the second is substantially lower than the first (i.e. Rent £400/pm - service S8 when arrears £1200, at court arrears are £900 - thats still over 2 months worth).

Remember also that the judge is the one who makes the judicial decision, not the court staff. If the judge does not automatically make an order for the arrears (in my experience they do), then ask for an order, and also ask for your costs (i.e. the court fee, time off work, travel to court, prep of papers etc.), the judge has got to allow you the court fee at least - others are discretionary.

The great thing about PCOL in my opinion is you are given the court date immediately rather than having to wait for the local court to allocate a hearing which used to take longer. What is quite laborious is that you have to enter the rent payments and charges into their online form and you have to be very accurate - garbage in is garbage out!!!!!!

jeffrey
23-09-2008, 09:07 AM
One of the best pieces of advice I can give anyone using the PCOL system is "assume nothing" and take the view that the tenant will try every ploy possible at the hearing, so you must be ready to counter every porky that the tenant or his solicitor/rep/friend/whatever tells. Have proof of rent arrears in a tabular form - Date. Rent Due. Paid. Total Arrears. Copies of bank statements if the tenant pays direct to bank also help.

You only need the judge to consider that there were 2 months arrears* or more at the time of service of the notice, and that there are 2 months or more arrears* at the court hearing date with all payments and rent charged up to the court hearing date. It does not matter if the two figures are different or whether the second is substantially lower than the first (i.e. Rent £400/pm - service S8 when arrears £1200, at court arrears are £900 - thats still over 2 months worth).

Remember also that the judge is the one who makes the judicial decision, not the court staff. If the judge does not automatically make an order for the arrears (in my experience they do), then ask for an order, and also ask for your costs (i.e. the court fee, time off work, travel to court, prep of papers etc.), the judge has got to allow you the court fee at least - others are discretionary.

The great thing about PCOL in my opinion is you are given the court date immediately rather than having to wait for the local court to allocate a hearing which used to take longer. What is quite laborious is that you have to enter the rent payments and charges into their online form and you have to be very accurate - garbage in is garbage out!!!!!!
*- Pedant's note:
Ground 8 does not mention "arrears" in the context of a rent due monthly: just that there must be two months' rent unpaid- which means falllen due but not yet paid. There is no requirement that rent must be two full months in arrears.

Bel
23-09-2008, 12:01 PM
Members' own courtroom experiences are very useful to other members.
Thanks.

U187146
17-11-2008, 12:33 PM
Just completing PCOL and a quick question. Is it the local court to where I live, or the one local to the property on which I am seeking possession ?

Thanks.

davidjohnbutton
17-11-2008, 12:55 PM
The one local to the property which you are repossessing.

Make sure you have the right court - phone them and check if need be because court boundaries are not always defined the way you would logically think they are.

For Example, Thurnscoe is in Rotherham Postal Area and Rotherham STD code, administered by Barnsley MBC and the court is Doncaster County Court. You would logically think the CC would be Barnsley!

U187146
18-11-2008, 21:29 PM
I've just completed my PCOL entry online and paid the £100. When can i expect to get a court hearing date ? It wasn't instantaneous, so it seems like there is some manual intervention at the other end.

Also under the defendant details, there is a "Date of Service" which states "Not Set". I entered a date for when the Section 8 was served so I'm not sure this is referring to.

Thanks.

SALL
19-11-2008, 09:14 AM
It will take a few days for the court staff to set a hearing date for your case. The date would be anywhere between 4 to 8 weeks, depending on how busy your local court is.

The "Date of Service" they are referring to is most likely the date the court papers are sent to defendant, this date will be updated as and when court staff process your case.

Poppy35
12-06-2009, 18:19 PM
sorry have a mind blank at work today

S21 served and expired on tenant end of May, L now want tenants out, they are still over 2 mths in arrears.

Is it better to go down the PCOL route or apply to the court for a possession order - which in your experiences is the quickest route?

sorry for asking, even though I have 15 yrs experience never had to go further than S21 for evicting someone - just been lucky i guess!

thanks guys

Paul Gibbs
15-06-2009, 07:44 AM
pcol and court claim are the same thing. pcol is simply an online process that has a lower court fee of £100 rather than £150.

Court claim needs to be issued in T's local court, whereas pcol will be issued in Northampton bulk centre and then is likely to be transferred to T's local court.

Ericthelobster
20-07-2009, 16:56 PM
Having served Section 8 on my tenant today for rent arrears, I was wondering what the pros and cons were of using PCOL (which I've never used) versus submitting my papers to my local court (as I've done previously).

As far as I can tell from reading up and searching the archives of this forum, both routes end up in front of a judge in the courtroom anyway, though the PCOL fee is less. What else? Are the timelines any faster for PCOL?

norroy
23-07-2009, 12:50 PM
I used the PCOL method in May, and was given a court date for six weeks later.

I am not sure if it is quicker, but it is easier and cheaper. As always you just need to keep on top of it all the way through.

havensRus
23-07-2009, 13:06 PM
I always submit online via PCOL. It is £50 cheaper, and faster and environmentally friendly as no paper is generated. You will also get a date immediately, which I like, unless the court is too busy, which sometimes happens.
The quickest date I've had was 4 weeks from date of submission.
With paper, you have the postage time, and time it takes the court office to process it... which could be 1week to N-weeks!!
Once submitted, you can track it online. The court will continue to send you paperwork anyway...

Ericthelobster
23-07-2009, 13:50 PM
Thanks for the replies; this concurs with what I've come up with from browsing around, that whatever else, it's not going to be any slower going via PCOL. Will give it a whirl and see (still have over a week to go yet anyway).

(Have to say the environmentally friendly aspect did not play a part in my decision!!)

Paul Gibbs
23-07-2009, 14:41 PM
Basically the online system makes it easier and cheaper for the courts to process the claims, so to encourage its use they charge less.

Ericthelobster
23-07-2009, 15:14 PM
Basically the online system makes it easier and cheaper for the courts to process the claims, so to encourage its use they charge less.That's good; but not really an issue for me as the saving represents about 3 day's rent; so the court timescales are far more relevant.... anyway, the tenant is going to end up paying the fee - TRUST ME!

Ericthelobster
23-07-2009, 19:33 PM
Can anyone advise on the following queries when completing the PCOL "Payment history" online?

1. If there are other payments due under the tenancy (ie admin fees for reminder letters in my case) do you simply add these under 'payment history' as you would do a rent payment? Just that there's no way of annotating what such payments are for.

2. During the payment history, at a couple of places my tenant actually went into "negative" arrears by paying his rent a couple of days early. You have to record a running total of the arrears, but if you enter a 'minus' the system won't accept it. Is it OK just to say the arrears are "0" on these occasions? Don't want to get my application bounced due to procedural errors... :eek:

havensRus
24-07-2009, 22:36 PM
Can anyone advise on the following queries when completing the PCOL "Payment history" online?

1. If there are other payments due under the tenancy (ie admin fees for reminder letters in my case) do you simply add these under 'payment history' as you would do a rent payment? Just that there's no way of annotating what such payments are for.


Yes. Date due would be the day you charged the account with the other payment, the amount and add it to running total of accrued arrears.




2. During the payment history, at a couple of places my tenant actually went into "negative" arrears by paying his rent a couple of days early. You have to record a running total of the arrears, but if you enter a 'minus' the system won't accept it. Is it OK just to say the arrears are "0" on these occasions? Don't want to get my application bounced due to procedural errors...

No need to enter a minus. Accrued arrears in that case is 0. I've had a case where tenant paid 6 months in advance, so the accrued arrears column was zero until she used up the advanced payment.

HTH:D

Ericthelobster
27-07-2009, 12:10 PM
Thanks for the feedback

To be 100% sure, I would call the PCOL Customer Help DeskWell, seemed a Good Plan and I've done just that... the advisor really didn't give the impression of knowing anything about it, but after consulting with her line manager, told me no, I'd have to submit a separate MCOL for anything other than rent arrears. When we got on to the second query about what to do about 'negative' arrears she (and the manager) didn't have a clue and advised me to consult my local court as it seemed like mine wasn't a straighforward reposession case (which of course it is).

So, zero confidence that I've been given the correct answers.


Yes. Date due would be the day you charged the account with the other payment, the amount and add it to running total of accrued arrears.

Can you confirm that you've done this successfully with PCOL? We're only talking 30 quids-worth of fees, so I don't want to risk predjucing the entire claim by including them. Or realistically is the worst that can happen just having the fees struck out?


No need to enter a minus. Accrued arrears in that case is 0.

Sounds reasonable enough - again though, is this what you've done in practice?

SALL
27-07-2009, 12:28 PM
Thanks for the feedback
Well, seemed a Good Plan and I've done just that... the advisor really didn't give the impression of knowing anything about it, but after consulting with her line manager, told me no, I'd have to submit a separate MCOL for anything other than rent arrears. When we got on to the second query about what to do about 'negative' arrears she (and the manager) didn't have a clue and advised me to consult my local court as it seemed like mine wasn't a straighforward reposession case (which of course it is).

So, zero confidence that I've been given the correct answers.



Can you confirm that you've done this successfully with PCOL? We're only talking 30 quids-worth of fees, so I don't want to risk predjucing the entire claim by including them. Or realistically is the worst that can happen just having the fees struck out?



Sounds reasonable enough - again though, is this what you've done in practice?

Your experience with their phone support staff is same as what I experienced. They haven’t got a clue of what they are going or how the system they are meant to be supporting works.

I’m not sure if you can add the admin fee on a PCOL claim, personally I would just leave it out. As it’s only £30 anyway.

havensRus
27-07-2009, 20:05 PM
Can you confirm that you've done this successfully with PCOL? We're only talking 30 quids-worth of fees, so I don't want to risk predjucing the entire claim by including them. Or realistically is the worst that can happen just having the fees struck out?


I have added other charges, mainly utilities. The actual rent statement (I've just checked), has some of these listed only as an invoice no. and then the amount (so could be anything really), whilst some are itemised in full. I got possession, and nothing on the statement was queried.

I always send in a "witness statement" pack prior to the hearing with all relevant paperwork which include ASTs, copies of letters, invoices, deposit certs, statements of rental accounts, etc.-anything that has a relevance on the case.

I've attached a "blacked out" (a la MPs expenses method) pdf copy statement of the payment history submitted online.





Sounds reasonable enough - again though, is this what you've done in practice?

Again, yes and successfully. Also attached is another "blacked out" pdf copy of the payment history for another case submitted online that illustrates the point.

havensRus
27-07-2009, 20:06 PM
I’m not sure if you can add the admin fee on a PCOL claim, personally I would just leave it out. As it’s only £30 anyway.

The PCOL fee will be added at the end of your submission. You can also add solicitors fees at that stage if you have incurred any.

Ericthelobster
07-09-2009, 15:00 PM
Soon due in court as landlord for a hearing via PossessionClaim Online...

Currently preparing my 'bundle' for the hearing: could anyone advise, where do I put in for any costs incurred? Does you just add it to bottom of the Rent Statement as an itemised entries, put it in the witness statement, or do you ask the Judge verbally?

I don't see why I shouldn't include "X" hours at £9.25 as litigant-in-person; so as a follow-up query what would be considered a reasonable number of hours to put down? I'm asking because the actual number is embarrassingly and certainly untenably high :o, not having done this before; so I'd like to claim for realistic and fair figure...

johnjw
08-09-2009, 08:29 AM
Though your claim for time spent would be absolutely justified, I think I wouldn't make the claim myself. In my (thankfully limited) experience, judges are totally dismissive when it comes to claiming legal expenses such as Solicitors bills and I'd suggest that you may meet the same attitude with respect to a charge for your own time spent on the litigation.

Ericthelobster
09-09-2009, 13:15 PM
Currently preparing my 'bundle' for the hearing: could anyone advise, where do I put in for any costs incurred?Just thought I'd follow up this thread post-court hearing, as I always find it interesting and useful to hear the outcome of others' experiences...

I decided not to include my own litigant costs, and the judge asked me about my costs at the end of the hearing. I thought 'oh well', and said 'Um, er, er, er, other than the court fee, there's just costs as my litigant-in-person really'. He said that would have been entirely reasonable especially given the 'excellent quality' of my witness statement/bundle(!) :D but that the other side (who didn't show up to the hearing) would need to have had the opportunity of reviewing my costs first. Advised me to look at the Civil Procedure rules about this online (I just have, but they're as clear as mud to me!).

With reference to the unfortunate error in my PCOL application (see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21706) I decided to keep schtum and hope for the best - fortunately it wasn't spotted! and I duly got my notice of possession.

One other point which is worthy of mention: there's been discussion here about whether with PCOL you should submit your bundle in advance or just take it along on the day of the hearing. I opted for the latter, and although it wasn't a big issue and the judge did gladly accept it, he did say that it would have been much better if I'd pre-submitted it so he'd have had time to read it beforehand.

havensRus
09-09-2009, 19:50 PM
Just thought I'd follow up this thread post-court hearing, as I always find it interesting and useful to hear the outcome of others' experiences...


With reference to the unfortunate error in my PCOL application .... I decided to keep schtum and hope for the best - fortunately it wasn't spotted! and I duly got my notice of possession.


:D Glad it went well for you.


One other point which is worthy of mention: there's been discussion here about whether with PCOL you should submit your bundle in advance or just take it along on the day of the hearing. I opted for the latter, and although it wasn't a big issue and the judge did gladly accept it, he did say that it would have been much better if I'd pre-submitted it so he'd have had time to read it beforehand.

That indeed is why I submit the pack a week before the hearing as i mentioned in this thread
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21973

It would also take care of "the other side reviewing costs before the hearing"

Hope the T leaves on the due date.

Ericthelobster
09-09-2009, 20:07 PM
That indeed is why I submit the pack a week before the hearing as i mentioned in this thread
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=21973Thanks I'd read that - however others elsewhere had also said that it wasn't necessary in their experience. I was thinking that if I submitted one pack to the court I'd have to send one to the tenant too, and therefore why show him my hand beforehand if I didn't need to? (especially with that error in the form...!)


Hope the T leaves on the due date.Yeah right... I have the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand here: I haven't the slightest hope he will go quietly unfortunately.

Incidental question... I got a money judgement as well as the possession order, but I won't know the full extent of that until T actually leaves (and I tot up the total rent and deduct the balance of his deposit etc) - can I do anything at all about enforcing that in the meantime, or is that on 'hold' till he's gone?

havensRus
10-09-2009, 07:07 AM
Thanks I'd read that - however others elsewhere had also said that it wasn't necessary in their experience. I was thinking that if I submitted one pack to the court I'd have to send one to the tenant too, and therefore why show him my hand beforehand if I didn't need to? (especially with that error in the form...!)


Experiences obviously differ - dependent on the judge. I have found judges more appreciative of having the info to hand prior. Enables the "system" to be more efficient with court time.


Yeah right... I have the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand here: I haven't the slightest hope he will go quietly unfortunately.


Hmmn... you never know. I had one that I thought was going to sit tight for bailiffs, but went before the day!! Then again, the court order might just wake him up and he may decide to co-operate and start paying back the arrear. I've got one doing just that now. We came to a payment arrangement which she has kept, and she's just got herself a new higher paying job so she can get her life back on track and out of debt. Fingers crossed!!


Incidental question... I got a money judgement as well as the possession order, but I won't know the full extent of that until T actually leaves (and I tot up the total rent and deduct the balance of his deposit etc) - can I do anything at all about enforcing that in the meantime, or is that on 'hold' till he's gone?

How was the money judgement stated then? I tend to ask for and get judgement based on a fixed amount, which is the monies owed to date of hearing (arrears-deposit) plus a fixed amount per day (annual rent/365) until T moves out.
I've not yet tried to enforce judgement prior to possession day. However, nothing stops you starting the enforcement process whilst T's whereabouts are still known-particularly if T is working and you can get attachment of earnings.

Ericthelobster
10-09-2009, 11:00 AM
How was the money judgement stated then? I tend to ask for and get judgement based on a fixed amount, which is the monies owed to date of hearing (arrears-deposit) plus a fixed amount per day (annual rent/365) until T moves out. It was a fixed amount up to the end of this month (ie, next rent date) and then daily rate thereafter. (He gave T 28 days to leave, so that's after the next rent date).

nothing stops you starting the enforcement process whilst T's whereabouts are still known-particularly if T is working and you can get attachment of earnings.Well, that was exactly my hope - especially as this bloke has a well-paid job. Haven't been able to establish what the problem is about paying rent but suspect he must have a problem with something like drugs/booze/gambling...

Can I proceed now as if I'd just won a Small Claim against him, or what? Presumably he won't have CCJ registered against him yet - will that happen before the total amount of the sum owed is known?

rizwany84
08-10-2009, 10:55 AM
Hi

I am going to be PCOL to claim possession of my property. I have a few queries that I need some help with:

Step 5 Claim Particulars (Rented Residential Premises)
1. Current rent – This is what is written in my tenancy agreement “The Rent shall be £260.00 every fortnight during 14.11.2008 until 23.01.2009, payable in advance. Thereafter the rent shall be £270.00 every fortnight during 06.02.2009 until 29.10.2010, payable in advance” The tenant stopped paying from April, so should I write £270.00?
2. Reason for possession – Should I write the full text of each ground, or just the ground numbers ie Grounds 8, 10 & 11?
3. Recovery steps already taken – Should I write dates of letters written regarding outstanding rent or something else?
4. Notice type – is it ‘Notice seeking possession’ if I have issued a section 8?
5. Defendant circumstances – what kind of details do they require?
6. Financial information – I am owed the rent arrears, What else could I write?

Step 6 Payment History
In my AST I have stated late payments are charged at £15.00 per late payment. Should this be included in the ‘Amount Due’? If not where do I list this?

Last question, where could I write any charges for my actual time doing this process and not using a solicitor, if I could?

Thanks for your help in advance.

davidjohnbutton
08-10-2009, 12:25 PM
1. Current rent means rent that is presently being paid - so yes, thats £270
2. Put "Rent arrears. Total accumulated £x at (date). Possession is claimed under Ground 8, 10 and/or 11 of Schedule 2 Housing Act 1988 as amended by Housing Act 1996. Arrears represent x months. Also, persistent delay in rent payments. (I nearly lost a case for a client when the solicitor for the tenant pointed out that this was not mentioned in the claim)
3. Write dates of letters sent or statements supplied and any other contact you have had chasing the arrears.
4. Yes, Notice Seeking Possession (for an AST)
5. Whatever you know about their finances - whether claimed HB/LHA, whether working, children, elderly are examples.
6. Say something like the Claimant is unable to fully discharge his own committments because of the failure of the defendant to pay rent lawfully due.

Your late payment fee is probably an unfair contract term. There is no scope for including this in the payment history which you will input step by step - best leave it out.

There is no scope within the PCOL for claiming for your own time as litigant in person. In my own experience you will probably only get the court fee awarded BUT on a couple of occasions, I have seen awards of £50 or so for time and trouble in prepping the claim and attending court, but by and large, judges seem not to pile on a few extra quid for costs on the basis that it is already usually a large judgment for the defendant.

Make sure you attend court - if you don't, the judge will probably reject the claim as they will want to hear your evidence as to up to date arrears.

rizwany84
08-10-2009, 12:43 PM
Many thanks for your help david.

Just one last question. I served a section 8 notice, and the amount I wrote was £1245 which was oustanding the late payment as well as the rent arrears as one sum (rent arears £1200 + £45 late payment fees = £1245). Should i have just wrote £1200 oustanding rent instead?

I will now enter the payment history excluding all late payment fees in PCOL, but will the wrong figure jeopardise the case?

davidjohnbutton
08-10-2009, 13:47 PM
Leaving off the potentially unlawful charges on the pcol claim will not affect the claim - the judge will expect to see three different lots of figures anyway

1. At the time of issue of the S8notice
2. At the time of issue of the Summons for Possession (i.e. when you file at pcol) and
3. At the date of the hearing.

rizwany84
08-10-2009, 14:16 PM
last question this time, promise.

just to make sure, the figure i wrote on section 8 was £1245 but with a typo it was printed as £1425.

Should this be a problem? The main point is the tenant is more than two months in arrears.

Ericthelobster
08-10-2009, 17:53 PM
In my AST I have stated late payments are charged at £15.00 per late payment. Should this be included in the ‘Amount Due’? If not where do I list this?In my recent PCOL case, I did add in two such charges; my AST allows for a £15 admin fee for writing to chase uplate rent. They simply appear on the PCOL online entry as an "amount due", ie same as rent. The witness statement which I included in my court bundle included a rent statement in which they are entered as "Admin fee". Judge didn't question this and allowed it; having said that T didn't show up to question it. But I think the worst that could have happened is that the judge might just have said no?


Last question, where could I write any charges for my actual time doing this process and not using a solicitor, if I could?I asked the judge this, and he said that given the effort I'd evidently put into preparing the case it would be perfectly legitimate, however I'd have needed to include the amount claimed in the bundle and presented that to the court and defendant beforehand, so they would have had a chance to object. (I didn't submit the bundle in advance of the court hearing, which I was advised by the judge would have been preferable despite being PCOL).

By the way - search the forum for "PCOL" for loads of useful advice on the process - helped me enormously.

Poppy35
08-10-2009, 18:40 PM
also make sure that on the date of the hearing you take with you 2 up to date statement of accounts as of that day - one to give the tenant should they make an appearance and another for the judge to see.

I am in court tomorrow but luckily the tenant left 3 days ago so fingers crossed will award an attachment of earnings - and tenant works in a bank too!!

havensRus
08-10-2009, 19:42 PM
I submit a Witness Pack, which comprises a Witness Statement, and copies of all relevant paperwork, eg. AST, S8, letters etc.

the last item of the witness statement is something like this:

"I hereby request the Court to order the Defendant to vacate the property immediately, and to order the Defendant to pay all the rent arrears to date, and rent due at £XX per day from now up to the date s/he vacates the property, and to pay my court costs of £100 and legal costs of £YYY immediately"

The statements of account both in the PCOL submission and the rental account include any fees charged, and so far so good, I've not been called up on it yet.

My most recent S8 hearing was mid september, and I requested £150 for my court costs, and judge awarded it without so much as a blink. Infact, his statement pronouncing the judgement was pretty much as I'd written it. And because I'd submitted the pack before the hearing, and served T a copy, I was in and out in 5 minutes. T attended, but had no defence.

HTH

rizwany84
09-10-2009, 18:32 PM
Hi

Tenancy began in Nov 08. Tenant paid fine until Jan 09 when he lost his job. Since then he is self employed and earns very little. Consistently late payments with rent. Deposit was deferred till April 09 but still none given. Issued section 8 as rent arrears was £2040 to date. Submitted PCOL today. Tenant came round this evening and gave a cheque for £2010, and stated he can give minimum £100 a fortnight.

Timescale
14-11-08 Tenancy commenced. Rent £270 fortnight.
20-02-09 Deposit Due Date. None given.
17-04-09 Deposit Not Given
22-09-09 Issued section 8, grounds 8, 10, 11. Rent arrears £2040
09-10-09 13:00 Submitted PCOL
09-10-09 18:00 Tenant gave cheque for £2010,
09-10-09 19:00 Withdrew PCOL


1. I withdraw my PCOL this evening. Will my £100 fee be refunded?
2. Assuming the cheque the tenant gave clears, can I put some of it towards the deposit, or do I have to put it all towards the rent?
3. Tenant is consistently late with payments and is going to be in the future as well.He is also not going to be paying he full rent. Can I still continue with PCOL on grounds 10 and 11, (as the cheque he gave will bring home to less than 2 months rents arrears)?
4. In the future, when he get to more than 2 months in arrears do I have to issue a new section 8 or can the one issued on 22-09-09 be sufficient?


Thanks in advance.

Esio Trot
09-10-2009, 18:47 PM
Why did you withdraw? This was not the best thing to have done - so you need to see if you can get it reinstated.

Once it is reinstated and you have a hearing date, attend the hearing.

If there are no arrears, ask that the case be "adjourned generally, with liberty to restore". You may not quite get this, as there is no end date, but you should at least get a liberty to restore for at least a year.

This means that if the tenant again goes into arrears you can restore the action without needing to pay another fee.

If you can't get your action reinstated, then sadly you have lost the money (though your tenancy agreement if comprehensive should allow you to recover this from your tenant as if it was rent).

rizwany84
09-10-2009, 21:41 PM
Asssuming I can get the PCOL 'reinstated' (can I do this by ringing them?) can I go ahead on the following grounds:

1. ground 10 - the tenant still has rent arrears, but less than 2 months?
2. ground 11 - persistant late payment for rent, which the tenant admits?
3. ground 12 - the tenant hasnt paid a deposit?
4. Do I have to issue a new section 8, or is the other one still valid (which shows ground 8,10,11) ?
5. shall i allocate some of the payment made by the tenant towards the deposit or all towards the rent arrears?

havensRus
10-10-2009, 10:34 AM
apportionment depends on your arrangement/agreement with T.

I believe you can add further grounds to a S8 after its been issued, but not sure how.

However, 10-12 are discretionary grounds and you may/may not get possession. You could follow advice given by Esio above.

Never, ever again accept a cheque from a T, and base your actions on it before the funds have cleared. Its asking for trouble.

If I were at the door of the courthouse and the T gave me a cheque, I'd tell him where to stick it. Now if T gave me a bankers draft or cash, I'd take it, and let the judge know, but still ask for a suspended order. You never know....

rizwany84
15-10-2009, 12:47 PM
I rang the PCOL customer service help desk. They informed me i have to get the case 're instated' from the local court as i withrew it. I rang the local courts and they said i have to fill in form N244 and pay £40. Is this correct?


If i do get my case re instated, as the tenant is now less than 2 months in arrears, can i get the case to be '"adjourned generally, with liberty to restore' ?

Esio Trot
15-10-2009, 12:54 PM
I rang the PCOL customer service help desk. They informed me I have to get the case 're instated' from the local court as I withrew it. I rang the local courts and they said I have to fill in form N244 and pay £40. Is this correct?
Sounds about right. The court has a fee for almost everything they do. Looking on the bright side, £40 is cheaper than starting again from scratch.


If I do get my case re instated, as the tenant is now less than 2 months in arrears, can I get the case to be '"adjourned generally, with liberty to restore' ?

This has to be done at a hearing - which will no doubt be at least six weeks in the future. By the time of the hearing there might or might not be two months of unpaid rent, or it might be that rent is fully paid up. It is in the days before the hearing that you decide on your strategy, not now.

davidjohnbutton
15-10-2009, 13:13 PM
Frankly I would not bother making a N244 application.

Either you get the fee back from the court, if you don't, then charge it to the tenant.

You are working on the assumption that the court judge will grant your N244 application - if it is not granted because for example the arrears are less than 2 months or for some other procedural reason, you will have lost £40 and gained nothing.

If the tenant becomes two months in arrears again, just reissue the S8 notice and do another fresh PCOL claim.

Poppy35
15-10-2009, 13:29 PM
Good luck for tomorrow. ;)

You'd have to apply for AofE separately after the judgement.

yes realised that once I got in there!!

Judge awarded court costs and £150.00 for my clients time off work.

just waiting for judgement to come through and can then get attachment of earnings.

Anyone know how that will affect her employment as she works for v large bank in customer services??

Esio Trot
15-10-2009, 13:58 PM
Anyone know how that will affect her employment as she works for v large bank in customer services??

When you apply for an AoE, they first write to the debtor for a statement of means. When your debtor gets this, in view of her position, I am confident that she will contact you forthwith to arrange payments direct. That way her employer wont get to know.

This has happened to me quite a few times.

Get her to put in writing what she proposes, then write to her accepting her offer. State that if she reneges you will refer the matter back to court without notice. Next write to the court telling them what you have agreed. The court will then 'suspend' the attachment of earnings order while the debtor maintains the agreement you have made.

rizwany84
16-10-2009, 08:28 AM
Thanks to everyone for the help and advice given.

When tenant becomes in arrears again of more than two months I will issues a section 8 and start a fresh claim for PCOL.

I rang up my local courts requesting a refund for my PCOL claim. They informed me to write a letter asking for the refund. Will do this later on today and let you guys know if i get a refund.

jeffrey
16-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Not two months' rent 'in arrears' but merely owing. There is a big difference.

rizwany84
19-10-2009, 14:25 PM
In my tenancy agreement I have stated "1.7.4 Late Payments will be charged at £15.00 per payment."

Is this legal?

The tenant has given me some money for rent arrears (cheque which was cleared today) and I just wanted to know can I allocate some of this towards late payment fees, or not?

jeffrey
19-10-2009, 14:57 PM
Although the Late Payment fee of £15 is lawful, it's almost certainly unenforceable as being a penalty unrelated to the amount unpaid.

Ericthelobster
20-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Although the Late Payment fee of £15 is lawful, it's almost certainly unenforceable as being a penalty unrelated to the amount unpaid.So include it in the claim and the worse that can happen is that it gets disallowed, surely? It's not going to prejudice the whole case.

scribbler
20-10-2009, 11:09 AM
I've issued a section 21 notice several months ago but have allowed the tenant to remain in occupation and he has continued to pay rent and the tenancy has become a periodic tenancy.

The tenant has failed to pay the rent this month so I'm looking at obtaining possession through PCOL. What should my next steps be?

jeffrey
20-10-2009, 11:24 AM
If the s.21(1)(b) Notice was valid when served, it remains valid even after the fixed term expiry (unles a new Letting is expressly granted).

scribbler
20-10-2009, 13:54 PM
I've just noticed that it was a section 21(a) that was served on the tenant does that make a difference?

jeffrey
20-10-2009, 21:07 PM
I've just noticed that it was a section 21(a) that was served on the tenant does that make a difference?
If it was correctly prepared and lawfully served, the Notice has no 'use by' date and still holds good unless a new Letting is granted.

Esio Trot
21-10-2009, 08:24 AM
The tenant has failed to pay the rent this month so I'm looking at obtaining possession through PCOL. What should my next steps be?

You can't use PCOL for s21 possession, only s8. Thus you will need to issue a s8 notice. The usual grounds are 8, 10 and 11.

scribbler
21-10-2009, 08:50 AM
Hi Esio,

You say you can't use PCOL for s21 possession. I don't doubt your wisdom on this but can you clarify where it mentions this. If this is the case isn't this bonkers when a s21 is supposed to offer accelerated possession!

Esio Trot
21-10-2009, 08:56 AM
You say you can't use PCOL for s21 possession. I don't doubt your wisdom on this but can you clarify where it mentions this. If this is the case isn't this bonkers when a s21 is supposed to offer accelerated possession!

Have a look at this link to the Practice Direction (http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part55b.htm#IDAHMYQ)

You need to scroll down to rule 5.1.

adam1516
02-11-2009, 11:47 AM
I have recently issued a PCOL to my tenant, who owes 2 months rent. I understand I can only use PCOL for eviction purposes IF rent arrears is the grounds for eviction.

It struck me that if he pays the costs and arrears, would the eviction hearing scheduled still go ahead, or would I have to go through the process again?

Good advice appreciated.

jeffrey
02-11-2009, 12:05 PM
PCOL (Possession Claim On Line) is step 2. On what grounds did you serve a s.8 Notice [= step 1] on T?

adam1516
02-11-2009, 13:49 PM
I didn't. A Section 21 was issued.

Ericthelobster
02-11-2009, 15:02 PM
I didn't. A Section 21 was issued.So you can't use PCOL then: that's for Section 8 only - which is what you use if using rent arrears as grounds for eviction (as per your first post). Section 21 is for mandatory 'no-fault' reposession.

adam1516
02-11-2009, 15:46 PM
Originally I used section 21 as, like you say, a no blame solution after the six months had expired. I know I don't have to give a reason as to why I required the property back for a section 21.

After the two months had expired, the tenant had still not moved out. He stopped paying the rent after August (the section 21 notice expired in October), so I thought I could use PCOL as a method to get rid of him.

Here's what it says on the PCOL form -

"the reason the claimant is asking for possession is:

(a) because the defendant has not paid the rent due under the terms of the tenancy agreement.

(c) because:

The claimant is entitled to possession further to the expiry of the statutory section 21 notice on October 22nd 2009 served on the defendant on August 12th 2009......

As I said, he stopped paying rent after August.

If he pays off the arrears, is the PCOL order still valid?

jeffrey
02-11-2009, 16:11 PM
If a valid s.21 Notice is served, and the Notice period is correct, L is entitled to an immediate Possession Order. No 'fault' is necessary on T's part.

tom999
02-11-2009, 16:19 PM
After the two months had expired, the tenant had still not moved out. He stopped paying the rent after August (the section 21 notice expired in October), so I thought I could use PCOL as a method to get rid of him.If valid s.21 has been served, and expired, then apply for possession using form N5 or N5B (accelerated possession).

adam1516
02-11-2009, 17:09 PM
I don't think I'm making myself quite clear enough here.

Let me start again - the PCOL notice is issued as grounds for possession if there are rent arrears.

IF the tenant pays the rent arrears, would the PCOL notice still be valid? Simple question.

jeffrey
02-11-2009, 17:25 PM
I don't think I'm making myself quite clear enough here.
No, you're not. You told us that

A Section 21 was issued.
But ericthelobster told you that
you can't use PCOL then: that's for Section 8 only - which is what you use if using rent arrears as grounds for eviction (as per your first post).


Let me start again - the PCOL notice is issued as grounds for possession if there are rent arrears.

IF the tenant pays the rent arrears, would the PCOL notice still be valid? Simple question.
Please do start again. You served Notice under s.21; so unpaid rent is irrelevant. Yes? Geddit?

P.Pilcher
02-11-2009, 18:11 PM
O.K. Let's try to further simplify matters:
It woud appear that you have used section 21 to tell your tenants that you want them to leave. This is a mechanism that a landlord can use to get rid of tenants without having to prove any reason in a court of law - the "no fault" mechanism. This is available to landlords who want their property vacated for absolutely any reason whatsoever. It requires that a reasonable period of notice is given to the tenant concerned - at least two months - and this notice cannot expire within the fixed term granted in the original AST.
Once the notice has expired, the landlord can apply to the local county court where the judge will study the paperwork in chambers and if it is correct a possession order should be forthcoming. You cannot use PCOL for a section 21 application and if your two month notice period has expired you should now be completing form N5A and sending it with the £150 fee and all other necessary documents to your local county court.
Now if you have a REASON for evicting your tenant, the notice period can be shorter. If said tenant has failed to pay rent due for a period of two months (in practice this means that he must have missed two rent payments so it is just over a month) then you need to use section 8 - a totally separate procedure. Now you can use PCOL if you wish, but be warned that if your tenant pays a portion of the rent owed to bring his arrears down to below two months, then the grant of the possession order is no longer mandatory. It will depend of the discression of the judge on the additional grounds 10 and 11 - persistent late or irregular payment of rent. You can however commence court action two weeks after the service of the section 8 (10&11) notice.

You are best advised to continue your section 21 action as described above and then claim for the unpaid rent with a separate MCOL action.
Please note what I say below with regard to the above "advice"

P.P.

jta
02-11-2009, 18:14 PM
What people are trying to tell you is that a S21 is a 'no fault' demand for the property. Rent arrears do not come into it. You can get a court order to enforce the possession but there will be no order for rent arrears. If you want to pursue the arrears then use MCOL.

tom999
02-11-2009, 18:19 PM
Originally I used section 21 as, like you say, a no blame solution after the six months had expired. I know I don't have to give a reason as to why I required the property back for a section 21.Yes. s.21 if served correctly will give you mandatory possession. Continue with this route, by applying for possession using forms N5 or N5B.



After the two months had expired, the tenant had still not moved out. He stopped paying the rent after August (the section 21 notice expired in October), so I thought I could use PCOL as a method to get rid of him.No. You cannot continue with s.21 procedure via PCOL, as others have implied.


If he pays off the arrears, is the PCOL order still valid?Rent due is irrelevant if following the s.21 route.

jeffrey
03-11-2009, 11:19 AM
..which is what I posted, albeit unwelcomed by OP.

havensRus
03-11-2009, 11:38 AM
jeffrey, OP is probably looking for an answer that matches what he thinks or wants to do ... so didn't gettit!!


I don't think I'm making myself quite clear enough here.

Let me start again - the PCOL notice is issued as grounds for possession if there are rent arrears.


NO. PCOL is not used for issuing notices but for Court Claims.
To use PCOL, S8 Notice is first issued if there are rent arrears, on grounds 8,10, 11. Then, after expiry of the 2-week notice period of the S8, and if T still not paid, the court claim for possession is made using PCOL.



IF the tenant pays the rent arrears, would the PCOL notice still be valid? Simple question.

Once again, PCOL is not a notice to be served. If you served the S8, and the tenant pays the arrears, then fine, you don't have to go ahead with the claim which means you don't use PCOL. The S8 notice is valid for one year, so if T falls into arrears again, you could then issue Court claim via PCOL.

HOWEVER, you have already stated that you issued S21. Which is a no-fault possession notice. You CANNOT use PCOL to start the court process for a S21 notice, you need to send in the paperwork, which is Form N5B + relevant exhibits(documents) + £150 cheque made out to HMCS.

You can still go ahead with the S21 route to get possession, and then use MCOL to claim the rent arrears.

Alternatively, issue a S8 as I explained above.

HTH.

Milton
22-11-2009, 00:25 AM
Hi,

Hello I am hoping you may be able to offer advice on how I should proceed with my tenant being paid 100% LHA but not passing it onto me.

Summary of history:
•26/08/09, signed 12mth AST, T (if relevant, a single parent on income support) paid 1 month rent and deposit. It was agreed that T would immediately apply for LHA
•22/10/09, T confirmed LHA claim was 100% successful and would transfer arrears when received from Council (they pay 4 weeks in arrears)
•09/11/09, arrears (26/09/09-08/11/09) due from Council. When I did not receive it and could not reach T, I contacted council myself who confirmed that T had been paid 8.7wks rent (26/08/09-25/10/09) on 03/11/09 and 2wks rent (26/10/09-08/11/09) on 09/11/09. I could not get hold of T – mobile disconnected, no response to letter through the door or email.
•11/11/09, emailed Council to let them know that T had not paid me any rent and was 7wks in arrears
•18/11/09, protected deposit online and sent T the DPC
•20/11/09, council confirmed that they had written to T today (10 days after I contacted them!) and would give her 28 days to respond with evidence that she'd paid me; if not received, they would start paying me directly from date of last payment to T, ie 09/11/09

I would now like to seek arrears (currently 8wks and rising till council decide they will pay me) via PCOL. However, if the council start paying me in 28 days arrears will have fallen to 6wks + 2 days as they will backdate to 09/11/09.

So my Q is PCOL a good idea? I've pretty much ruled out T actually paying out, afterall she doesn't work (I'm sure she's spent it as she refuses to communicate), so I'm hoping for a possession order. Can this be done through PCOL or are they likely to dismiss my claim if rent due has fallen to 6 wks by the time I get to court?

Any advice gratefully received.

tom999
22-11-2009, 07:25 AM
So my Q is PCOL a good idea?Yes.

I've pretty much ruled out T actually paying out, afterall she doesn't work (I'm sure she's spent it as she refuses to communicate), so I'm hoping for a possession order. Can this be done through PCOL or are they likely to dismiss my claim if rent due has fallen to 6 wks by the time I get to court?
(1) Before applying to PCOL, serve s.8 g8, 10, 11 (g8 will give mandatory possession, and is applicable if more than 2 months rent is owed, if rent paid monthly); from your description, by expiry of s.8 (2 weeks after service) tenant may well have 2 months (or 8 weeks) rent owing, so g8 will apply.
(2) Also serve a valid s.21* (as a backup, in case s.8 fails); this will also give mandatory possession (i.e. it allows LL to gain possesion of property, on a no fault basis, i.e. tenant does not have to be in arrears, etc.)


* If AST in E&W and any protectable deposit is protected.

Milton
22-11-2009, 21:49 PM
Thanks for your response.

Perhaps I should mention that the AST does not have a 6mth break clause and therefore expires 25/08/10. So my questions:

Can I still serve a s21 now?

Also, if the council start paying me in 28 days, payment will be back-dated to 09/11/09. Thus if I serve a s8, 14 days later apply to PCOL, the rent arrears would then be approx 6.5wks - would the s8 still be valid at the court date?

Thanks

tom999
22-11-2009, 22:17 PM
Can I still serve a s21 now?Yes.

Thus if I serve a s8, 14 days later apply to PCOL, the rent arrears would then be approx 6.5wks - would the s8 still be valid at the court date?s.8 g8 only applies if 2 months rent is owed (if rent paid monthly) at time of the notice and at the hearing*; if 2 months rent is not owed; wait until it is, and then apply for a Court Order.

* Note that hearing may be anything from 1-2+ months from application, during which time arrears will be accrued.

jeffrey
23-11-2009, 10:59 AM
Can I still serve a s21 now?
Yes, as tom999 posts. A Notice under s.21 can be served at any time, once AST has actually started.

Milton
24-11-2009, 00:11 AM
Thanks guys.

Do you think the explanation of why each ground is being relied on below is appropriate?

Ground 8
As of 26 November 2009 arrears of rent total £1700.00, constituting 2 months arrears. This continues to increase at a daily rate of £27.94.

Ground 10
No rent has been paid since 26 August 2009. TWO months’ rent due at the date of this notice i.e.
DUE DATE AMOUNT DUE RECEIVED AMOUNT OVERDUE
26/10/09 £850 £0 £850
26/11/09 £850 £0 £1700

Ground 11
The tenant has not paid any rent since moving into the property i.e. has only paid on time on one occasion.

jeffrey
24-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Don't say 'arrears'. For monthly rent, 'arrears' is not the issue- simply rent unpaid.

rizwany84
31-12-2009, 00:53 AM
Hi

I just submitted a PCOL (31-12-2009). As soon as I paid I received a date and time for the hearing (08-02-2010). Possession is claimed under Ground 8, 10 and 11 of Schedule 2 Housing Act 1988 as amended by Housing Act 1996.

1. Apart from the date and time of the hearing does the defendant have to do anything, or fill in any paperwork?

2. Do I have to submit any paperwork before the hearing or do anything else?

Many thanks in advance.

Poppy35
31-12-2009, 09:57 AM
nope they get given the opportunity to file a defence before the date and copies of this will get sent to you.

Take ALL your paperwork with you to court includings copies of AST, letters, deposit protection, gas certs etc - i always take the whole file then if the DJ asks for something I have it to hand.

excalibur
31-12-2009, 10:19 AM
2. Do I have to submit any paperwork before the hearing or do anything else?



The way I did it a few month ago, as advised by some LLZ members, was sending Court and tenants a 'bundle' pack with a witness statement that documents the steps that led to the claim, copies of all relevant paperwork inc. AST, statement of rental account, letters/email to and from tenant etc., S8 notice & proof of posting/notice of service; all clearly labelled as exhibit 1,2.... etc., as referred to in the witness statement.

Just make sure, if you do so, to file the pack in time , and also serve tenants their own copies of everything (at least two working days before the hearing)


Good luck with it all!

Moderator1
31-12-2009, 17:03 PM
Several threads on the same topic have been merged here.

axil23
15-05-2011, 21:53 PM
2. Put "Rent arrears. Total accumulated £x at (date). Possession is claimed under Ground 8, 10 and/or 11 of Schedule 2 Housing Act 1988 as amended by Housing Act 1996. Arrears represent x months. Also, persistent delay in rent payments. (I nearly lost a case for a client when the solicitor for the tenant pointed out that this was not mentioned in the claim).

Hi all - I have just come across this site. Did 2 PCOL's last week and in part 2 I just put in "Total accumulated arrears: £ 1840.00 ,Reason For Possession: Rent of £1,840 remains unpaid and therefore the
defendant is in excess of two months or eight weeks in arrears." as that is what I was advised by a friend who did a PCOL and successfully got possession.

So your advise is that it needs to be the exact same legal term as used by Lawyers? What should I do? Can I amend this somehow? The hearing is June first week.

jeffrey
16-05-2011, 11:57 AM
There is no prescribed form of wording in describing the unpaid rent- but AVOID the word 'arrears' as it's wholly inapplicable to a case in which rent is payable weekly/fortnightly/monthly.

axil23
16-05-2011, 12:14 PM
Ok. I can avoid it in the future. You think that this could cause problems for my current two claims?

jeffrey
16-05-2011, 13:13 PM
It might, due to the wording of ground 8.
See post #51 on http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?28889-Housing-Act-1988-(as-amended)-for-reference/page2

axil23
16-05-2011, 13:36 PM
What do you suggest? Is there a way I can modify the PCOL claim? Like I mentioned the court date is in 3 weeks.

jeffrey
16-05-2011, 14:44 PM
I do not handle litigation, so I do not know. I suppose that you could ask the Court staff.

axil23
16-05-2011, 15:58 PM
I do not handle litigation, so I do not know. I suppose that you could ask the Court staff.

Will do and update here. Thanks