Tenant believes that electrical circuit/system is dodgy

[DanTheMan]

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[Editor]

Unfortunately if the landlord wants to gain possion she can do so at the end of your fixed term providing she goes through the proper notice procedure.
You should put your concerns to her in writing (keeping a copy) and giving her the opportunity to get something done.
She may ask another electrician to check this out to establish if it is dangerous or it just that it does not meet the latest requirments?
Explain that your concerns are such that you will need to contact the local authority environmental health officer if necessary.
They will put an enforecment order on her if it is dangerous.

[P.Pilcher]

Aha! But what sort of earth? These days all pipes are electrically connected together to try and ensure earthing continuity throughout a house. 40 years ago earthing a gas pipe was a forbidden no-no! My house was built and wired 50 years ago and there is no electrical connection of the pipes. This is perfectly safe as there are no plastic pipes in the installation. There are no connections to the gas pipes either! My only compliance with modern wiring regs is to connect an earthing strap across my recently installed water meter as the sealing washers of the connections to this unit may otherwise have interrupted the earthing of these pipes. As our Editor says, the electrics may be perfectly safe, just not up to the latest standards. Your landlady should therefore obtain her own electrician's opinion and, hopefully, act on that.

P.P.

[Poppy]

Anyone who has owned enough cars, computers, houses and whose expertise lies outside these fields will come to know that the experts often say things like “… needs rewiring” and “… needs a new widget” and “… needs to be completely stripped back and renewed”. You soon (at your expense and worry) realise that you don’t always have to jump because the experts say so. You soon realise that many of the experts are not always right, do not always tell the whole truth and are not actually an expert but a chancer.

Sure, write to the landlady about your concerns. I'm sure she doesn't want her income stream to go up in smoke. Approach it from that angle.

In the meantime buy yourself a smoke detector (and take it with you to the next property). At the end of the day, if the landlady decides to regain possession of her property she can do so after the fixed period of your tenancy has expired and without giving you a reason.

[Elektratek]

Aha! But what sort of earth? These days all pipes are electrically connected together to try and ensure earthing continuity throughout a house. 40 years ago earthing a gas pipe was a forbidden no-no! My house was built and wired 50 years ago and there is no electrical connection of the pipes. This is perfectly safe as there are no plastic pipes in the installation. There are no connections to the gas pipes either! My only compliance with modern wiring regs is to connect an earthing strap across my recently installed water meter as the sealing washers of the connections to this unit may otherwise have interrupted the earthing of these pipes. As our Editor says, the electrics may be perfectly safe, just not up to the latest standards. Your landlady should therefore obtain her own electrician's opinion and, hopefully, act on that.

P.P.

Mr Pilcher, unfortunately i have not read the initial thread by Dan the Man of this message, as it may be edited/deleted, and i have no details of the topic.

In the mean time, i have grave thoughts - with all due respect- to what you have posted here, as it is wrong, aswell as a 'code 1' non compliance.
I will go so far as to say that aswell as being inaccurate, it is also highly dangerous, and the overall tone of the text i interperet as being acceptable to you. I would not condone this situation of earthing you have described in any way shape or form to be left, and i would certainly recomend it was urgently attended to.
The facts are inaccurate for the water meter details, aswell as the use of the gas pipe as being earthed with a bonding conductor as opposed to being an 'earthing' conductor. I feel you have missed the point of the purpose of a metalic gas main being bonded, and, out of ignorance, of the way the 'earthing' system and EEBADOS ( Earthed Equipotential Bonding and Automatic Disconection Of Supply) actually works. I would suggest you research this subject before you post an opinion on it, as i would hate to think the work of skilled individuals was being undermined by somebody accepting the content of your text.

Quote from Poppy - the experts often say things like “… needs rewiring” and “… needs a new widget” and “… needs to be completely stripped back and renewed”. You soon (at your expense and worry) realise that you don’t always have to jump because the experts say so. You soon realise that many of the experts are not always right, do not always tell the whole truth and are not actually an expert but a chancer."

My response Poppy, would be to use an apporoved contractor, and thus reduce your chances of getting a 'chancer' to line his pockets with your money.
Get the facts - ask for the regulation number that something contraviens if you are in doubt, and get it in writing by way of an official report!

May i take this oportuinity to remind all landlords of a legal obligation they have and a duty of care to let a property in a safe condition. Should you fail to do this... i ask WHO is the chancer???

I trust this fits with the topic of this thread, and i have now put my soap box back in it's cupboard!

[P.Pilcher]

Thanks for your comments, Electrateck - I fully appreciate your fury!

A few months ago, a tenant of mine reported that both his wife and child received an electric shock from their sink. The property concerned is fully certificated as you suggest. The tenant (a building contracts manager)considered that his own washing machine was to blame. It was replaced and the problem disappeared. My electrician checked the sink and confirmed that everything complied to the current regulations!

THE SINK WAS NOT BL***Y EARTHED!!!

I'll get off my soap box now!

P.P.

[Elektratek]

deleted to to repost of a duplicate of next message

[Elektratek]

where do i start??? i think i should direct you back to my previous post. You are wrong with what you posted, and if you would like advice on why your tennats may have got a shock I am willing to enlighten as to the possibilities!

In the mean time, I suggest you look more closely at the report you received, and you are obviously not happy, so take it up with the contractor who carried it out, or ask to have it explained by your electrician or accept the fact that bonding is a fundamental part - if not the most important - of and electrical installation.

I sympathise with your dilema with the tennants, however, i have personally had this with an old flat of mine. NOBODY WIRED THE SINK UP, but I still got a belt off it, because the immersion packed up and the system wasn't earthed. NOT the sink, but the water main... could have been the gas main? I'll leave you with food for thought to research you posts before you come acoross a bigger idiot than you are posing to be be by reciting info based on a passed dilema, as opposed to real facts you have learnt from your so called experience.


I would further suggest you put you soap box up for sale, as it should no longer be required on this subject, unless you can find an audience with ignorant ears. I do not wish to be rude , and that is not my intention by any means, but i have to suffer electrical ignorance from people most days who claim to have an 'informed' opinion, and mostly talk out of the back of their underpants!

With all due respect and honest sinceretiy as always we try

[Worldlife]

Agree with Elektratek their is no substitute for the professional opinion of a reputable and trustworthy contactor.

OTH we, the untrained, learn through our experiences and observations.

Probably the following points and queries may be a bit basic for some but I'm wondering if the answers may provide some useful safety information.

I was somewhat amazed at the number of earthing points in our rented property that was a conversion done in the mid 1960's. I observed our plumber added a few more when completing the installation of a replacement bathroom suite!

In comparison I think our own 1974 property has only a couple of earthing points - one to external ground and if I recall correctly near the mains input so the tenanted property seemed to me a little over the top on earthing precautions.

We have not yet replaced our own original fuseboard with circuit breakers but have installed a circuit breaker mainboard at the rented flat.

Experience suggest the circuit breakers are extremely sensitive and I am wondering if they would protect an occupant from injury or death in the event of there being an earthing fault as described in this thread.

How safe are instant shower heaters in bathrooms and again would a circuit breaker protect the tenants?

[P.Pilcher]

I fully appreciate Electrateck's fury at my ranting about some modern electrical requirements and the situation I find/have intentionally put myself into. However, being a graduate electronic engineer and member of the Institute I work on basic electrical principles. Regrettably (maybe), my head is'nt full of the current wring regulations and requirements, but what it is full of is the basic electrical principles with which it started filling at the age of 4 and has continued ever since.
In my book, my tenant received a shock due to a faulty washing machine. Clearly the machine's electrical insulation failed. Whether it failed to make it live to earth, or it failed to enabled the water to contact a live conductor I do not know, but it worked and neither circuit breakers or RCD's tripped.
What I do know is that the house was consrtucted about six years ago, was wired up to comply with the regulations of the day, and an appropriately qualified electrician has more recently certified full compliance.
All our current wiring regulations are designed to prevent this YET MY TENANT RECEIVED A SHOCK. If the sink was properly earther (as it is in my house via the water main) I do not believe this could happen.

Anyway, as I know that Electrateck (whose professional input to this forum and this thread I appreciate greatly) and I will never agree on this one, I shall say no more on the subject!

P.P.

[Elektratek]

Lay people don't understand, 'electricians' understand - some only enough to debate, engineers understand, designers understand and inspectors understand.

The subject is one of the most debated in the electrical enviroment, and that is 'bonding'.

Even electricians down the pub will argue and ask and debate and agree and disagree about the right and wrong way to carry out 'bonding' in it's vast context and application.

In short, you have picked one hell of a subject to start with.

I won't go into the regulations, as they wouldn't be understood by lay people, nor are they intended to. However, i will touch on a concept, and that is all properties nead earthing to water gas and other metalic bits in the dwelling/installation where applicable. This is to make sure if one metal bit goes to 100V under fault conditions, the other metalic bits go to 100V too, so you now can't get a shock between them (a bit like a bird standing on a power line), thus enabling the protective device to operate and disconnect the supply in either 0.4 of a second or 5 seconds (dependant on what it is).

An RCD measures what goes out, and what comes back in, and if 30mA or more goes missing (30mA rated), is causes it to trip and disconnects the supply. These are tested on installation and periodic inspection, and forced with a 15mA current, to ensure they DON'T trip within 2 seconds, to prevent nuisance tripping.

Although this won't kill, is has to be usable in the real world, hence some leakage current is allowed.

1 - 1 mA Bareley perceptable, no harmful effects
5 - 10 mA Throw off, painful sensation
10 - 15mA Muscular contraction, can't let go
20 - 30mA Impaired breathing
50mA and avove Ventricular fibrilation and death

You can select one of these magantudes each time you have a shock, and you will see that the RCD doesn't help much - but it is designed and rated @30mA to stop you dying.

It is therefore possible to get a shock with the RCD quite happily supplying current to your unsuspecting limb! dissapointing, as most people are told RCDs won't give you a shock.

RCDs and showers - well there is no regulation that states it must be RCD protected, but consider the option next time you stand in the shower wet and adjacent to 7.5 or more Kilowatts of heater pushing water out on top of you ( that's 30Amps plus ). They are perfectly safe and meet national requirements, but i don't like the idea of them which is a personal preference, and an RCD will afford more protection than an MCB alone.
Modern breakers are not so much sensative, but faster tripping in comparison to the old bit of wire which has no feelings, it just melts when too much current passes through it, or desintigrates at high currents, assuming the correct size was installed in it in the first place.

Kitchen sinks are not required to be earthed, unless they introduce a potential (that of zero). This is given by anything metalic that has a resistance of <23,000 ohms to earth. in short - the sink.

Agreeance is made on earthing the sink, thus taking the leakage current to earth, and not having it reside in the case of the washing machine in this example, however, if the sink was piped in plastic with a plastic waste, then it would offer no path to earth.

Hope this gobbledegook allows a little more understanding

[Worldlife]

Thanks Elektratek. Wonder what the effect of 10 ma electrical shocks would be on the frail or very elderley or perhaps someone with a pacemaker.

Am I correct in believing that bonding is essentially a "green" circuit that links all metallic fittings either via an earth cable or through copper or stainless steel pipework?

Am I also correct in thinking that many isolated metal objects have to be connected separately into this bonding system?

I've just rechecked our home system and the main fusebox is linked by a thick earth cable to the main incoming gas pipe.

Although there is an earth wire from the rising main running into the cavity wall I could see no sign of it outside the property. Maybe I was mistaken in believing there was a special earth provision. A water meter has recently been installed between this earth and the incoming main.

Are metal pipes such as copper or stainless steel part of the bonding system

[Ericthelobster]

The subject is one of the most debated in the electrical enviroment, and that is 'bonding'.

Even electricians down the pub will argue and ask and debate and agree and disagree about the right and wrong way to carry out 'bonding' in it's vast context and application.

I think you're dead right there: and one issue in particular (amongst lay people, not electricians, hopefully) is the fundamental difference between "earthing" and "equipotential bonding" which is invariably muddled or glossed over, as in this thread.

As a lay person, I certainly don't claim to understand it all, but I know that under current regs there is actually no requirement to use bonding in a kitchen at all - something which a lot of electricians don't know. In fact, in a kitchen, I understand that some even consider it a danger to supplementary bond as you are more likely to get a nasty shock if handling a portable appliance with an earth fault.

[By the way - as someone coming into this thread late - is it just me or do others find it intensely irritating that people can simply jump in and delete their posts at will, as the originator of this thread has done?]

[Poppy]

[ Authors of forum posts must be allowed to amend or delete their posts. There is nothing to say that once you have posted something it must be available forever and a day. If we didn't have the right to choose, the forum probably would not be quite so open and frank.

I think in this case the originator wanted to hear certain things, but it didn't turn out that way... ]

[Worldlife]

Maybe it is a good idea to quote key parts of a contentious post so that your response makes sense if the original writer decides to edit his/her post.

@ Eric

Is bonding a continuous earth loop linking all metal based items that may give rise to shock between a human and a faulty electrical device?

[Ericthelobster]

Authors of forum posts must be allowed to amend or delete their posts.Have to say I disagree and don't see why. But then I'm a veteran of Usenet newsgroups, which have been around for donkey's years longer than the world-wide web, and consequently have long-since got used to the idea that when you post something it is pretty well impossible to retract or amend it


If we didn't have the right to choose, the forum probably would not be quite so open and frank Or alternatively maybe it would make people think a bit more before posting total rubbish or libellous stuff - although frankly my experience of Usenet would not support that argument! :)