Can L enter premises if T's vacated?

[knitlass]

My tennant has not resided in property for over 2 months.Arrears of rent have been requested via a note posted through the door.This of course brought no response because she wasn't there. So I telephoned her on her mobile on the 10th march, where upon she hung up on me before speaking.I then telephoned her back and left a message requesting rent or the return of keys.No response.My husband called at her mothers' house on the 22nd of March and spoke to the sister and left a message to return key and remove her belongings. No response.
On the 27th of March we broke into the prperty .All belonigngs still there.We did not change the locks .
Last night at 11.30pm she entered the property and removed a bed and some other things.She also bolted the rear door from inside so that I could not gain access again.
Please advice what action I can now legally take to stop her gaining access and does she she still have the right to remove more belngings.

[Jennifer_M]

You shouldn't have entered the property in the first place ! You could get done for that...

The options to get your property back are:
- the tenant gives you the keys back and clearly says (write) that she's giving up the tenancy
- she's 2 months + in arrears and you issue a s.8 notice and take her to court to have her evicted and get your money back (if you're lucky)
- if it's a 6 months tenancy and 4 months at least have past you can issue a s.21 notice to end the tenancy (you need 2 clear months notice) and then if she hasn't given the keys back you take her to court to get her evicted - just make sure you issue the right s.21 notice in the 1st place

But DO NOT enter the property and/or change the locks because she could turn back and sue you.

[knitlass]

Thank you Jennifer.
Tennant's tennancy expired approx. 6 months ago and has not been renewed.However she continued to pay her rent until 25.1.05.She changed the lock on the front door and dispite numerous requests for a key none was forth coming.We have decided to sell the house as we are feed up with renting it and none paying tennants.Should I contact her again and ask her to remove all her property and return the keys.I am willing to right off the arrears so that I can put the property up for sale.

[Jennifer_M]

Well it's worth a try ! I suspect if she wants to leave the property she'll be glad you are willing to write off her arears for the keys back !

Make sure you get her to sign a paper saying she's leaving.
And also don't accept for her to leave the keys in the property and never see her because you can't enter it without her giving the tenancy up first.

Finally if you have any deposit, don't give it back before you are sure the property is in order.

I'm not sure you can keep the deposit in place of rent though.. An expert would have to confirm this.

[knitlass]

Thank you Jennifer .
If the tennant does not have a tennancy agreement does she have any rights?She has not actually resided there for some 10 weeks.

[Jennifer_M]

If she has never signed an agreement but paid you rent I believe a standard 6 months tenancy was created and she has all the rights of a tenant even though she hasn't signed anything.

If what you mean is that she signed a 6 months agreement at the start of the tenancy but it wasn't renewed after 6 months then it is now a periodic tenancy and all the terms of the original agreement stand.

[Paul_f]

The only certain way of course to obtain repossession is by serving a S.8 Ground 8 Notice together with any arrears to be sure of getting the property back legally, and it's probably the quickest route too! The judge will also order the arrears to be paid within 28 days or you could then ask for a warrant of execution which would leave her with a CCJ.

My only reservation is that your having illegally broken into the property she could couter-sue if she has her wits about her.

Your proceedings should be served at her last known address, which of course is your tenanted property - you don't have to go searching for her current residence.

[gh53]

I let a good flat that had major conversion works done 3 years ago and has had 2 tenants. The first loved it and only left after 2 years to get married, the second has been a nightmare. This tenant complained almost incessantly by email for most of the 18 months both about the property, including threatening and abusive comments of a personal nature. There were some minor problems and misunderstandings early on but a small discount was offered and accepted by the tenant. After the year ‘s AST was up the tenant sent an email to express satisfaction with the property and a desire to stay another 6 months.

After that the complaining emails started again and I eventually agreed to some further improvement/remedial works, primarily new windows which were about the only thing not updated 3 years ago. However the tenant started to withhold rent and said this would continue until all works were done to the tenant’s satisfaction. The tenant paid later and later and was eventually paying 6 weeks late. I said firmly that no works would be carried out while the rent was in arrears. When the tenant changed the lock on the front door (and deducted the cost from the already reduced rental), and blocked access from the rear, I decided enough was enough and gave formal notice in writing, duly witnessed, of 8 weeks to quit. I heard nothing for over 5 weeks and rang the tenant at work to be told the tenant had left and the keys were in the post. They hadn’t arrived after 2 days so I managed to confront the tenant at the workplace and the keys arrived the next day, anonymously, by first class mail and recorded delivery

The 8 weeks expires in late June and the rent owed is around £600, that’s if the property is in good order. I have not received any written advice of the tenant having moved out, so:
1) Am I legally allowed to enter the property before the 8 weeks expires?
2) Can I take the tenant to the small claim court and claim rental to late June?

Sound and knowledgeable advice welcome!

[Editor]

You are not entitled to enter the property without the tenant's permission - full stop!
Do so at your own risk as the tenant can claim harassment - this has both criminal and civil consequences, and civil damages cases in the past have reached thousands in compensation.
It is not unheard of for tenants "in the know" to entice landlords into this action so they can claim.
Your tenant is in work, so a least you have a chance of recovering back-rent and any damage costs throught the Small Claims system.
You need to document everything, including a schedule of rent payments clearly showing missed amounts and your bank statements as proof - you should be regulalry sending the tenant these statements so he cannot deny knowledge later.
Try to meet your tenant and agree condition against any investory on leaving, and take along a camera/video to get good evidence of condition.
Anything beyond normal wear and tear including rubbish and furniture removal, cooker and carpet cleaning etc, get estimates and/or invoices.
Put your case together and go for the debt.
Hopefully you tenant will leave voluntarily at the end of his notice, otherwise you are into a possession order procedure, which will delay things further and could run up more arrears.
It's easy with hindsight, but the writing was on the wall with this tenant from an early stage - it's almost always possible to predict future problems once a parttern like this has been set. Once you have established this, cutting your losses at the earliest opportunity is the best option - you had your chance and you will know next time!

[gh53]

The tenant has gone but I don't have that in writing, just a comment on the phone a week ago, so can I go in?

[gh53]

Plan A:
Can I give 24 hours notice of inspection by email and sms, as I have done in the past, and then enter the empty property accompanied by a witness? There is a pile of unopened mail behind the door.

Plan B:
I went to see the tenant at the workplace last week and had to wait in the reception area (having been told by the staff the tenant wasn't there and I'd have to wait all day) until the tenant happened to walk past and I was able to ask about the keys. Meanwhile the tenant's employers had called the police, without telling me I had to leave, and so I explained the situation to the PC who saw no need to do more than simply talk to me, and then the tenant, separately. That's how I got the keys back. What if I ask the PC to tell me if the tenant told him of having moved out?

If neither of the above help then what on earth am I supposed to do?

[lawstudent]

You are not entitled to enter the property without the tenant's permission - full stop!
Do so at your own risk as the tenant can claim harassment - this has both criminal and civil consequences, and civil damages cases in the past have reached thousands in compensation.
It is not unheard of for tenants "in the know" to entice landlords into this action so they can claim.
Editor - I have to say this sounds more than a little far-fetched in gh53's case ... criminal consequences? "thousands in compensation"? Come on! Can you provide a reference to a single case in which an LL was successfully prosecuted or sued for entering a rented property from which he had good reason to believe his tenant had departed?

[gh53]

Plan C:
In front of 2 witnesses on April 28th, the tenant told me the lock had been changed on the entrance door and did not give me any copies of the keys. Logically if the keys that were posted to me open the door then surely that counts as permission from the tenant to enter the property - with a witness of course. Yes?

[Gailforce]

Write to the tenant - at the let property address and state that he appears to have abandoned the property (state your reasons why, eg pile of post) and if you do not hear anything to the contrary within, say 7 days - you will be changing the locks for the sake of security, and that he will need to contact you to gain access.

I know this is not the long winded legal process route, but this happened to me recently and it certainly did work - the tenant had abandoned the property and there were no repercussions! As he left early on in the contract, I am considering suing him in Small Claims Court for breach of tenancy!

I feel the above, would at least give you some defence - should he decide you have illegally evicted him.

[justaboutsane]

Editor - I have to say this sounds more than a little far-fetched in gh53's case ... criminal consequences? "thousands in compensation"? Come on! Can you provide a reference to a single case in which an LL was successfully prosecuted or sued for entering a rented property from which he had good reason to believe his tenant had departed?

Horror Story - "I thought she'd gone!
A landlord lets a flat to a young lady. She only pays the first months rent.

She then starts behaving badly, she has loud parties and the neighbours complain. Her boy friend causes a disturbance at the property on several occasions and kicks one of the doors in. The police are called in several times.


The landlord goes round several times to ask for the rent. He tells her that unless she pays the rent and behaves properly she will have to go. On at least one occasion he loses his temper and shouts at her.

One week he finds that she is not at the property. He continues to visit the property but she is never there. After about three weeks he suspects that she has left and uses his keys to gain entry.

The house is in a filthy condition and it is obvious that no-one has been there for some time. It is full of rubbish and there is mouldy food in the kitchen. He finds some of her personal things, such as a purse with £12 in it, clothes in the wardrobe and chest of drawers in the bedroom, and some videos in the lounge. However he decides that she has left, bags up all the items left in the property, and changes the locks.

None of the items left in the property being saleable, he dumps them (apart from the money in the purse which he takes against the rent arrears), re-decorates the flat, and then re-lets it to another tenant.

Two months later he learns of a scene at the flat when the she tries to gain entry and is refused by the new tenant. He is subsequently served with a county court summons for damages for harassment and unlawful eviction together with a claim for compensation for her property, and a notice stating that she has been awarded legal aid.

He loses the case and is ordered to pay compensation to the tenant, although the sum is reduced to take account of her unpaid rent and damage to the flat. He also has to pay her legal costs which run into several thousand pounds, as well as his own solicitors bill.


*****

Moral - Do not just repossess a property if you think the tenant has gone, without getting a court order, however large the rent arrears are. Note - this landlord could also have had a criminal prosecution brought against him in the Magistrates Court.

The full horror story only happens rarely - but this does not mean it cannot happen to you!

This article is posted on the Landlord Law Website lawstudent.

[Editor]

You may think so, but there have been some surprising cases.
In fact the initial post on this thread was a little misleading as it did not state that the tenant had already left, which in fact could be a case of abandonment, or it may simply mean the tenant has left and intends to return.
Perhaps also my answer was misleading as it implied that merely entering may lead to these consequences, as opposed to re-taking possession.
This is exactly the situation where a landlord can get him/herself in to a whole load of trouble if possession is taken without taking precautions.
In this situation, if a tenant returns to find the property has been taken, and perhaps re-let, even where he has not paid rent, the tenant really can claim compensation and I believe the guidline used is a punitive one based on the difference in the property value when tenanted and that when vacant - this can amount to a serious amount of money, perhaps up-to a quarter of the value of the property?
I don't have a case to hand as I'm relying on memory for examples I've heard about.
However, as you are challenging me to come up with one, I'll try, or perhaps one of our knowledgable legal eagles can find one?

[gh53]

My original post includes this sentence:

'I heard nothing for over 5 weeks and rang the tenant at work to be told the tenant had left and the keys were in the post.'

The tenant told me on the phone last week that s/he had moved out but I've no written proof of this. I am working on the principle that returning the original lock and keys for both locks implies giving me permission to enter the abandoned property.

Am I wrong?
Should I try to find out, very discreetly, where the tenant now lives?

[Gailforce]

Reading this,and my limited knowledge of property letting, don't you think the law is extremely unreasonably bias in the favour of tenants?

[gh53]

Seems to me that the pendulum has swung much too far, but I'm still unclear where I stand. The tenant told me on the phone that s/he no longer lived there, something I could say to a judge under oath, so what's the problem with me entering my property that has clearly been abandoned?

[Ericthelobster]

Seems to me that the pendulum has swung much too far, but I'm still unclear where I stand. The tenant told me on the phone that s/he no longer lived there, something I could say to a judge under oath, so what's the problem with me entering my property that has clearly been abandoned?I'm not commenting on whether or not you should or could enter the property, but what happens if the tenant says to the judge, under oath, that s/he clearly told you on the phone that she is still living there, and that under no circumstances should you enter the property? I gather that occasionally tenants (and of course landlords) have been known to tell untruths...

[davidjohnbutton]

I have posted some guidance on this sort of thing - use the search facility to look for my postings

[gh53]

She sent me the keys to the new lock that she had fitted, surely this is all I need? I've kept the envelope with its hand-written address.

[lawstudent]

I'm not commenting on whether or not you should or could enter the property, but what happens if the tenant says to the judge, under oath, that s/he clearly told you on the phone that she is still living there, and that under no circumstances should you enter the property? I gather that occasionally tenants (and of course landlords) have been known to tell untruths...
Indeed. And what if he simply pulls out a gun and shoots you?

[gh53]

Guns?? The point being??

I've now taken advice from 2 solicitors who agree that the tenant saying s/he's gone and returning the keys is enough to proceed.

[Editor]

Sorry gh53, it seems it did not read your original post correctly. Actually returning the keys is generally acknowledged to be sufficient evidence that the tenant has surrenderd his/her tenancy.
However, the thread does highlight some important points on harassment and unlawful eviction.
One comment was that the law has gone too far in favour of tenants.
In fact more recent legislation has redressed the balance somewhat and it is generally accepted that residential L&T law is now reasonably fair to both sides.
However, the law does come down very heavily on landlords who harass or illigally evict.

[lawstudent]

Guns?? The point being??
gh53 - of course people might perjure themselves to do eric down, but why let his paranoia stop there?

[gh53]

All I wanted was to know if I could enter the flat having retrieved the keys. In the end I had to get advice from the solicitors who've just completed my divorce and here: http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/asknoquestions.htm.

This forum hindered rather than helped so would it not be a good idea to have a quick reference page for such FAQs?

[lawstudent]

gh53: so much for everyone making all that effort to help you ... sometimes it's easy to see why people get divorced ...
and since you find this forum such a hindrance, should we call your proposed quick reference page "Frequently Useless Answers"? :)

[Andy Parker]

lawstudent - I have some sympathy with gh53.I have looked at a couple of new threads and the advice given is either unhelpful or wrong.gh53 himself/herself just wanted an answer to a straightforward problem which could be in a list of FAQs.

Editor - I think a FAQ list is a good idea.It should reduce the repetition of questions and answers.

[Jennifer_M]

No offence to anyone but David John Button has kindly posted several times the way to sort things out in this situation and said so in this thread. All the original poster had to do in this instance was use the search tool (maybe we need a FAQ on how to search a forum ?).

People tend to forget that advice given on forum is from "normal" people, sometimes expert but not always, but most importantly it's for free.
If anyone wants a quick answer to an important legal problem they shouldn't be so cheap and go ask a lawyer.

[Andy Parker]

Jennifer M - Your 'helpful' response only serves to prove my point (no offence).

[Jennifer_M]

And Andy, please remind me about your helpful input ? :rolleyes:

[Andy Parker]

Editor - My apologies there is a FAQ (click Information from Home page).I hope this will be expanded over time.

[paul_c]

lawstudent - I have some sympathy with gh53.I have looked at a couple of new threads and the advice given is either unhelpful or wrong.gh53 himself/herself just wanted an answer to a straightforward problem which could be in a list of FAQs.

Editor - I think a FAQ list is a good idea.It should reduce the repetition of questions and answers.


Hmm, do you remember some time ago Andy when I had the gall to question the validity of some of the answers to queries on this board? You've obviously had a change of mind since then.

[RichieP]

I first posted on here recently and recieved a few replies of the "look it up on searc" type thing, and one particularly sanctimonious on from someone not too far away. I thought for some reason this was a message board to help others and give advice. Why bother posting if you don't want to? Yes, some of the same questions get asked over and over. Let someone else answer if you have nothing constructive to say. New users approach message boards seeking reassurance and help. Getting a personal reply to your particular query helps more than reading someone elses similar query answered.

[Tootsie Roll]

I first posted on here recently and recieved a few replies of the "look it up on searc" type thing, and one particularly sanctimonious on from someone not too far away. I thought for some reason this was a message board to help others and give advice. Why bother posting if you don't want to? Yes, some of the same questions get asked over and over. Let someone else answer if you have nothing constructive to say. New users approach message boards seeking reassurance and help. Getting a personal reply to your particular query helps more than reading someone elses similar query answered.

I agree completely - if said poster can't be bothered to respond politely, why bother to patrol the forum at all.

[Paul_f]

I first posted on here recently and recieved a few replies of the "look it up on searc" type thing, and one particularly sanctimonious on from someone not too far away. I thought for some reason this was a message board to help others and give advice. Why bother posting if you don't want to? Yes, some of the same questions get asked over and over. Let someone else answer if you have nothing constructive to say. New users approach message boards seeking reassurance and help. Getting a personal reply to your particular query helps more than reading someone elses similar query answered.
Sanctimony is "simulated holiness" - don't see much of that on the forum, and anybody directing you to the search facility is opening up rather more than you give them credit for! :rolleyes:

[Andy Parker]

Paul F
Sanctimonious does not mean 'simulated holiness' in this context!Learn to use your dictionary and do not end your sentences with prepositions!Seriously the archive is full of good and bad advice in a disorganised jumble.A good FAQ list and posters who actually answer in an honest and helpful manner would improve the site.

[MrWoof]

Hi good people, I know that this has been answered before but I can't find it. I served notice on a tenant and as I had no response, no reply to letters or phone calls I went round there. They have obviously moved out, all furniture and personal effects gone. There are some minor items, bathroom set and old wardrobes left behind, also, about a week's worth of post, all junk mail and bills, no Christmas cards which makes me wonder if they are going back to retrieve mail they want.
Repossession date was in January but given the above, can I take possession now and re let the place?

[Energise]

From previous threads on the subject I dont think there is a definative answer Mr Woof, Its a judgement call :eek:

[MrShed]

Energise is totally correct, it is purely a judgement call from yourself. Technically speaking, they have not officially returned the property to your possession, so technically it would be breaching the law. However, if you are fairly confident that they have left, and also confident that they would not kick off if you took possession, you are probably fairly safe in taking it back.

[MrWoof]

I've just been advised by a solicitor that as long as I believe they are returning to collect mail, I should put a notice through the letterbox giving them seven days to collect the rest of their belongings and mail and can then take possession. I have never heard of this before, is it correct?

[Paul_f]

If the tenant has clearly abandoned the property, and has not left ANY possessions, save rubbish, then I would say it's fairly safe (but not lawful) to enter, but I would be pinning a Notice on the door as well as putting a letter through the box giving the suggested 7 days!

[Help]

Hi,

I would personally try to be safe by waiting for the eviction to go ahead if the bailiffs are involved. I spoke to my solicitor and he advised me that because my tennant left he could come back and say he was unlawfullyy evicted as he still had his stuff in there. The best thing to do is to take possession your self and also make the bailiffs come to the site. That way later on should any thing happen you have proof that you went through the right processes.

Its all such a pain and I am in a similar situation myself at the moment.

[MrWoof]

Thank you all for your replies. I will put a letter through with the necessary notice but as I am not in a position to keep an eye on the place, the notice outside will have gone missing. Hopefully, I'll have the locks changed and a new tenant in there by the end of the seven days.

[Dirty Stop Out]

Hope you dont mind me using your thread, but I have a similar situation. I issued a S21 to a tenant on 12 Oct expiring on 13 Dec for rent arrears...AST had come to an end before i issued the S21. I informed the tenant about 2 weeks before the S21 expired that when it had expired I would be going to court to get a possession order. About 2 weeks ago the tenants in the flat below advised me that he had moved out that night, so I had a look round the door to find that all his possessions had gone exept for a load of things belonging to a friend of his that used to live in the block. I have waited untill 18 Dec (today being 21 Dec) before I went in to inspect the flat. I have had the flat cleaned but i haven't removed any of the stuff that had been left. The cleaner called me to say that she had finished the job, but the ex-tenant had been into the flat earlier that morning and had taken all the fuses out of the fuse box so she couldn't vac the floor. This guy moved out of the flat approx 1 week before the S21 expired, so do you think I have waited long enough so I can change the locks? I will not be reletting the flat out straight away because the property is going to be going through some updating after xmas, so the stuff in there can be stored in case of anyone moaning that I threw it out.

[MrShed]

There is no problem in using a thread when a question is similar, but when it is basically the same, why bother? Your question is already answered above - it is a judgement call.

[kalpeshv]

Hi Please cann someone advise.

I have a tenant who has emptied his flat and left the keys behind. The tenant is in arrears but Im not too bothered about that. I just want to find a new tenant and rent it out again.

Ive tried contacting him but his phone wont accept incoming calls and he refuses to contact me. Am I safe to rent out the flat to someone else?

He has breached his contract by leaving the tenancy early and not giving notice but again Im not bothered I just want to rent out to someone else once I can find someone.

his deposit is with TDS, Im assuming theyll let me keep this as rent arrears if they cant get hold of the tenant (as he no longer lives there!)

Many Thanks

[Colincbayley]

Seems pretty clear that the property has been abandoned, but be carefull, have a look here!
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm

[Ericthelobster]

I agree with Colin... as regards the deposit, from what I've read here it's a right PITA to retrieve it if you haven't got the tenant's cooperation.

I trust your AST agreement says that you are allowed to use the deposit in lieu of rent in an eventuality like this?

[kalpeshv]

It hink Ill be ok on the deposit. The TDS have replied to an email from me sking about the deposit. They say theyre sending me a notice for signatre and will send one also to the tenant. If the tenant doesnt reply within 14 days then theyll give me the deposit. I have a line in the AST with respect to this.

I am also going to write a letter to the tenant with a SAE asking him to sign a note saying that hes finished his tenancy. I have a feeling someone in a nother flat is passing on his letters.

I think this is a lesson to get more than one contact number for someone, maybe a works number/parents number. Good references etc!!

Thanks for the insuarance warning.

Thanks for all your help.

[taylordean1]

i have been trying to evict a tennant for some time for non payment of rent, the first section 21 i issued the dates where wrong, the second was up on march 10th. she moved out on this date but did not inform me formally or give me the keys back.in the interim i issued a section 8 and have a hearing date on the 28th april. my questions are

1/ can i now legally enter the property even though she has not formally informed me.
2/ do i need to inform the courts that she has moved out has she will not have received notification of the hearing date.
3/ do i still attend the hearing to get rent claimed back

any advice much appreciated
dean

[jeffrey]

So how do you know that she has vacated?

[taylordean1]

i have just checked with the neigbour she said a removal van came and emptied the house, she also spoke to the tennant who told her she was moving

[Robert]

Hi. I'd really appreciate someone's advice here. I am owed a lot of money by a tenant and have obtained a CCJ against them. Bailiffs have visited but the tenant won't answer the door. The Bailiff has told me that he has the right to enter the property and take goods, but not to force entry. As the Landlord, can I unlock the door for him to enter, or does the act of unlocking the door mean that I have trespassed?

[Bel]

You could get in trouble for unlocking the door to allow entry of the bailiff, although it does sound tempting.




Did you not want to get a possession order against your tenants?

[Paul_f]

It appears the tenants are still in your property. Why?

[PK1]

Hi,
Also in our HMO we now have an empty room.
The "tenant" owes 3 months rent.
It is empty because he has taken everything, and left all the keys behind.
Left his job, left his ex-wife and ex-girlfriend (both living elsewhere) because the CSA are chasing him. Left 2 other pregnant girlfriends.
We let the rent go overdue because he had been in hospital (true) and off-work - although actually off-work due to suspected nicking.
No forwarding address - he has apparently moved 300 miles away near his family.
How long do we wait before re-letting the room?
Is it worth chasing for overdue rent? - I expect we will be at the bottom of a very long queue.
Thanks
PK

[PK1]

There are just over 2 months left on the 6 month AST.
Could we serve an S21 (on an empty room) and then assume he has vacated?

[Paul_f]

You need to give more information as what you have posted is far too vague - such as type of tenancy agreement, term, and dates would be a good start.

[PK1]

Tenant was in property when we bought it - so we had no information about him.

Property is a HMO.
New 6 month AST ends on 26th August.
He is supposed to pay rent weekly - it is now 18 weeks overdue.
Could see through window that room was empty.
He had left all the keys in the room.
He won't answer his phone.
He has left his job, his ex-wife said that he has missed appointments with his children.
I have now read the section on Abandonment and it seems that if we put up a notice, without getting a reply, then we can assume that it is abandoned ?????
Thanks

[Agent Apologetic]

You can also get an order from the court to re-enter and take possesion of the property imediately on more than one ground. 1.Abandonment and2. Non-payment of rent.

[James S]

Hello there,
Â*
I'm a landlord and I used a letting agent to tenant and manage my apt. They found me a tenant who signed a 6 month tenancy. He also signed a form (with the agent) upon moving in stating that he was responsible for the utilities and council tax. However he never actually set up accounts with the council or utility companies and he disappeared after 5 months without a trace.
Â*
I had to use his deposit to repair damage to the apt after he left and he didn't pay rent for the last month he was there.

The letting agent has forwarded a copy of the tenancy agreement to the council and the eleci/gas/water companies and this seems to be all they are willing to do. The agent is saying that they cannot provide me, the utilities or the council with copies of the tenants ID/references etc because of the data protection act (personally I think it's because they tried to trace the tenant after he did a runner and realised that the references were fake! Whenever I have asked them if they have tried his previous address, employer etc they have been very reluctant to discuss details with me other than they can not find him).
Â*
I have recieved a huge council tax bill...I am also worried that the utilities will now bill me for the costs as well. What can I do? I have asked the agents for their take on this but they don't seem to know what they are doing at all.
Â*
Any help would be much appreciated!

James

[PI Guy]

the data protection act is not applicable in this case as section 35 states-


35 Disclosures required by law or made in connection with legal proceedings etc

(1) Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is required by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court.
(2) Personal data are exempt from the non-disclosure provisions where the disclosure is necessary—
(a) for the purpose of, or in connection with, any legal proceedings (including prospective legal proceedings), or
(b) for the purpose of obtaining legal advice,
or is otherwise necessary for the purposes of establishing, exercising or defending legal rights.

[Pelican eats pigeon]

Since the agent is collecting references on your behalf, you have every right to see the references and ID. Anything else they might tell you is to try to cover their own arses.

They shouldn't disclose them to anyone else, though.

The utilities cannot bill you, as far as I know.

[James S]

Thanks for these replies.

So what happens if the council/utilities cant track down the tenant at all? Who will pay the bills then? And can I get into any trouble for not checking the agent had decent refs/ID in place?

[kayak]

Who's job was it to transfer the utilities into the tenant's name? Did anyone do this?

If not, then I can see a problem here because they may have been in the LL's name the whole time, in which case it may be harder to persuade a utility company that the T actually ever existed.

If the utitlities and CT were transferred into the tenant's name then there should be no problem as they will have to chase the T as the bills were their responsibility.

Kind regards,

John

[James S]

As far as I can gather the tenant signed a form stating that they were responsible for contacting the council and utilities etc. That was all that was done. The LA says they are not responsible for contacting these bodies as the tenant signed a form.

[johnboy]

Just contact all the utility companys and council tax dept give them the tenants contract dates and details and you may have to fax a copy of the signed contract as well. That should be enough, it always has been when i have dealt with them regarding outstanding bills.

[rajeshk4u]

James S When ever you use an agency, you should ask to see the tenants references. It's your property - you have every right. Some agent's charge the tenant's for references, if so ask to see that!. Also, some agents take their commission all up front, so they are not motivated to get you your if problems arise. This is why I prefer agents that charge management fee on a monthly basis.

Also, with the Council tax, you are going to have to deal with them, but there is a chance that you might need to pay it... A lot of Councils are coming down hard on Landlords, because they want to be notified when tenants change!!. If you have done your job and notified them, then the if tenant does not pay, then they can't come after you....

To be honest notifying the utilities and the council is the bread and butter of any agent. I get annoyed when agents charge silly fees and can't be bothered to send a few letters out to get everything in place..... A good agent will take down eletric & gas reading.... ask them if they have it!?

[kayak]

To be honest notifying the utilities and the council is the bread and butter of any agent. I get annoyed when agents charge silly fees and can't be bothered to send a few letters out to get everything in place..... A good agent will take down eletric & gas reading.... ask them if they have it!?

I largely agree with you but I think it does depend on what agreement the LL and LA have between each other.

For example, when we set up a LO service the LL is responsible for taking meter readings and transferring the utlitlies into the T's names.

However with FM it is our responsibility, and we send a letter to the utility company and if the property is vacant we get the closing bill sent to us, which we pay on the LL's behalf.

The OP does state that the LL is managing the property in which case I strongly feel that the LA should have actually transferred the utilities into the T's names rather than just getting a signature off them.

Kind regards,

John

[rajeshk4u]

You are right it depends on the service you take.

But one agent I took Letting's Only. But they charged the tenant £200 for a Check-in service and even then managed to botch up the gas readings....

[Poppy35]

As far as I can gather the tenant signed a form stating that they were responsible for contacting the council and utilities etc. That was all that was done. The LA says they are not responsible for contacting these bodies as the tenant signed a form.

what a load of c**p, like other says this is part and parcel of the service we provide, then on our first inspection visit we always ask tenants if they have received communications from the utilities etc as sometimes letters do get lost in the post

we do this for fully managed and let onlys.

give your agent a kick up the bum!

[markyparky]

I think my property has been abandoned by the tenants - they have cleared out all their belongings etc. They owed me several month's rent - the neighbour's said they say a removal van come and take all the stuff. Nobody has been back for over a week and I am concerned that they may have left something on that could be dangerous.

Can I have a look inside the house with my spare set of keys and if i do can the tenant take any action against me?

Many thanks.

[Sorrel]

Do them a letter, saying you are coming to do an inspection scheduled for this date, this time etc. Make sure it goes along the lines of you don't need to be in, i have a set of keys, if i don't hear from you by this date I will assume its ok.

Pop it through the door to make sure it got there, turn up on the day, if there's no answer have a look in and find your letter unopened on the mat, have a quick look around and leave.

Don't know how legally covered you would be with that one but its the only thing i can think of.

[Mark Hessel]

Please can all L's remember one simple lesson. Once you let your property you have no rights AT ALL to enter unless T agrees. There may be some arguable situations to say you can (that I would not spell out and would not advise trying anyway). T has right to peaceful possession, this means you cannot go in, you cannot have your agent show prospective new T's around near the end of the tenancy, you cannot go in full stop unless T consents! If you, or anyone you tell to on your behalf, do so then this is trespass and could be viewed as intimidation.

A letter to T saying I am going to inspect unless I hear to the contrary has the opposite of the desired effect. That letter is disclosable in any subsequent litigation (i.e if all goes wrong) and is actually evidence of your trespass becasue it shows you went in without actual permission.

T has right to stay there unless and until Court order and then bailiffs give you possession. With an empty property many say Court order is enough; I tend to disagree as when you actually take possession bailiffs remove all doubt. you don't want T to later claim they were there when you took possession and you hit them with a 2 by 4 to get them moving.

If you have arrears, my strong advice is section 8 notice, court application, court order, bailiffs, change at least one lock.

Please feel free to ignore this and take the risk. Be under no illusions it is a risk. Many will say the chance of T coming back and suing are nothing (this will keep you warm when you are arrested for illegal eviction). Remember, all the advice, opinions etc on here come with no money back guarantee or warranty. Many L's will have taken direct action and had no consequence, this is good for them but means nothing on each new occasion. If it goes wrong then you will be facing criminal charges (some in the magistrates and the rest will be lawyers charges; which really are criminal).

[Sorrel]

Fair enough, thats quite a thorough reply with lots of useful advice. I apologise for my previous post and would say in light of the above and the knowledge I already possess in my tiny brain to ignore what I said at all costs.

And I'm sorry Mark Hessel, I wont do it again :(

[settloe_99]

Hi Guys

I am interested on hearing other landlords views on how they handle vacated tenant arrears.

Do you:

a) Write it off and move on
b) Pursue the vacated tenant through the courts if necessary to try and recover your money
c) Use some sort of other debt collection method i.e. Debt Collection Company etc

We currently pursue our vacated tenants but I'm just wondering how many other landlord do this as opposed to just writing it off.

Thanks

[Key]

I have a property where the tenant (university student) has withdrawn from her course and returned home some 200 miles away early July left the property abandoned (3 months woth of mail etc) - unfortunately she has left all her belongings in the property.

All endeavours to contact her have failed, am applying for an possession order as it clear she will not be returning - I am more concerned with her possessions, this appears a grey area re how long to keep them, but the reality is if possession is granted I am going to have to move her stuff in order to re-let, what do I do with it all??

[jeffrey]

I have a property where the tenant (university student) has withdrawn from her course and returned home some 200 miles away early July left the property abandoned (3 months woth of mail etc) - unfortunately she has left all her belongings in the property.

All endeavours to contact her have failed, am applying for an possession order as it clear she will not be returning - I am more concerned with her possessions, this appears a grey area re how long to keep them, but the reality is if possession is granted I am going to have to move her stuff in order to re-let, what do I do with it all??
First thing to do: search LZ for the several threads about "Disposal of uncollected goods".

[BEAKS]

Hello,

i gave my tenant notice a month ago , and has now moved out before the agreed date of 30th sept, final months rent has been paid and i still have the deposit on the room

the tenant has been in contact with me and said they have not moved out and will be back on the 30th to leave the keys ,

my problem is that i have a new tenant who wishes to move in now,

and i need to know if i am allowed legally to let the room
as they still feel they have paid up until the 30th and thus claim ownership,
where as i feel they have moved out as all their posessions have gone and still need to leave the keys to he room and property

any advice help would be great

[LettingaProperty]

I am afraid that under the Protection from Eviction Act 1977, you cannot take possession from the property until the tenant has given the keys back or informs you that he/she has left and will not be returning. As per previous response, you may try to negotiate a settlement fee with the tenant.

Good Luck!

[BEAKS]

sorry if this wasnt clear i am a residential landlord, and this tennant has basically been really strange she is very agresive, and intimidating, slams doors stamps , and will not speak unless something needs fixed etc, and myself and the other tennant basically had enough ,gave her notice and every thing was cool ,(i thought) until she basically moved out secretly and rang the other tennant to claim she still lives there ,,

anyway im gonna do what i want to do as i have been more than acomodating to this person over the past year,

[mind the gap]

sorry if this wasnt clear i am a residential landlord, and this tennant has basically been really strange she is very agresive, and intimidating, slams doors stamps , and will not speak unless something needs fixed etc, and myself and the other tennant basically had enough ,gave her notice and every thing was cool ,(i thought) until she basically moved out secretly and rang the other tennant to claim she still lives there ,,

anyway im gonna do what i want to do as i have been more than acomodating to this person over the past year,

However weird and horrible this person has been, and however accommodating you think you have been, you have nonetheless agreed that she will vacate on 30th and she has paid rent up till then. It might be different if she had not, but she has. It's only a week. Although, as a lodger (rather than a tenant), she has fewer rights, you can't - without her agreement - end her occupancy, change locks, instal new lodger, etc. before the agreed date, unless for example, you have reason to think she poses a genuine danger to you or other occupants of the house. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Either wait until 30th, or negotiate with the woman.

[charlie_brownuk]

Hello All,

I had a written tenancy agreement with a family of Eastern European tenants. One requirement of the agreement was not to leave the property vacated for more than 21 day's.

Seven weeks ago the tenants advised that they will be taking a weeks break to visit their homeland and that they will return. The property still holds their belongings, however the tenants have not been in contact to say whether they have intentions of returning or not. Except that I had a friend of theirs contact me to say he required access to the premises to pick up mail, which I declined.

They owe me 7 weeks rent and have not been in contact since they left for their holiday's.

How can I evict the tenants - can I invoke section 8, if so how?

Thanks for your suggestions.


Charlie.

[mind the gap]

Hello All,

I had a written tenancy agreement with a family of Eastern European tenants. One requirement of the agreement was not to leave the property vacated for more than 21 day's. Seven weeks ago the tenants advised that they will be taking a weeks break to visit their homeland and that they will return. The property still holds their belongings, however the tenants have not been in contact to say whether they have intentions of returning or not. Except that I had a friend of theirs contact me to say he required access to the premises to pick up mail, which I declined.They owe me 7 weeks rent and have not been in contact since they left for their holiday's.How can I evict the tenants - can I invoke section 8, if so how?Thanks for your suggestions.Charlie.

You must wait until they owe you two months' rent, assuming your 'written tenancy agreement' is an AST, before you can issue a section 8.

[charlie_brownuk]

Thanks.

The tenancy agreement was a simple form which listed both Landlords and Tenants responsibilities, not sure about what the AST requirement is but the property is residential.

The agreement was for 8 months from end of June 08.

I am unclear as to how I can serve section 8, in particular as the tenants have not left a forwarding address.

Thank you.

[mind the gap]

Thanks.

The tenancy agreement was a simple form which listed both Landlords and Tenants responsibilities, not sure about what the AST requirement is but the property is residential.

The agreement was for 8 months from end of June 08.

I am unclear as to how I can serve section 8, in particular as the tenants have not left a forwarding address.

Thank you.

When you say 'a simple form' what do you mean, exactly? Who drew it up/where did you get it from? Does it say Assured Shorthold Tenancy anywhere on it, or not? Was it signed by yourself and at least one of the adult occupants of the property?

[charlie_brownuk]

The agreement did not make any reference to AST. It only listed what the landlord and tenant can do concerning the property (eg. repairs, utility bills responsibility, furnishings provided, notice periods, not to leave the property unattended for more than 21 days without prior agreement with landlord).

I was thinking about serving Section 8, ground 8 rent arrears.

Thanks once again.

[*marge*]

Hi.

I'm new on here and haven't been renting out properties for long. Just after a little advice on my one tenant, well now ex tenant!

The tenant posted me the keys to the property with a note saying he has moved out blah blah sorry for any inconvenience etc.

His tenancy agreement isnt up until 5 Nov this year.

He left without giving one months notice and owing about £36 rent. (He has the majority of his rent paid by the council and he tops it up by about £18 a month which we agreed to collect every couple of months off him because he is always out because his brother is ill)

I have tried calling him but he never answers his mobile phone. I have left two messages for him to call me to discuss this. I havent been to the property yet so have no idea what state it is in or if he has left furniture etc, will be going to see it later. Also I have no forwarding address for him.

What can I legally do to get the rent arrears and the one months rent which I'm guessing he has to pay to cover the one months notice period?

Any help would be great!

Thanks

[Paul_f]

There is no requirement to serve notice on the landlord to end the fixed tenancy term.

[SEB]

There is no requirement to serve notice on the landlord to end the fixed tenancy term.

Where does the OP say it was a fixed term Paul?
And if there is a fixed term, if it is up in November, the tenant has still one month left to honour.

[agent46]

There is no requirement to serve notice on the landlord to end the fixed tenancy term.

True, but not relevant in this case. The fixed term does not end until 5th Nov. The LL is therefore due a further 2 months' rent.

OP - if you can find the tenant, then you can sue him for the arrears, although as he's a HB claimant it's probably not worth your while.

[*marge*]

Thanks to those who replied already.

It is a Ten Agreement for a AST. Dont all tenants have to give notice when leaving?

His monthly rent is 320, so he still owes a month by no giving notice?. The £36 is what he owes at the moment.

He still isnt answering my calls and I have been up the property and he has took all the light bulbs and lft furniture and rubbish there and what looks lke a bag of medicine for asthma pumps.

Any advice on what I could do next with regards to arrears and furniture would be great, thanks!

[jeffrey]

His rent is not £18 per month- it's £320 per month. The Council source of the majority is irrelevant. He owes nothing like even one week's rent!

[Arysamy]

I have had a tenant from hell, so I gave her notice 21 to move out and it is signed by her. this was two months before the contract expiry dat of 31 August.(proper paperwork).

she never moved out and ever since the contract has expired she has not paid rent.
because she doesn't like contacting me, I asked the state agent to contact her and threaten her with a court action if she does not move out, she then replied by email confirming that she will move out on 20th Oct.

we know she has moved out a few days earlier and the house has been empty but she has not returned the keys nore does she reply to emails or telephone calls.She may have even taken some of my furniture with her.

The question is how can I legally enter the house to confirm that she has moved out , without having to wait for weeks for the court and bailiffs because I can't afford any more mortgage payments without rent income. also the property could be taken by squatters by the time the court will decide.

Please advise specially from legal people.
Many Thanks

[P.Pilcher]

Well, as a non-legal landlord, I can only tell you that legally, you can't. This tenant is quite possibly watching and waiting for you to re-enter the property at which point she will use her considerable entitlement to legal aid to ensure that your action will prove extremely costly. I regret that you can only enter if equipped with a court possession order, and if she is present, you will also need to be accompanied by a court bailiff.

(Of course you could also enter if you received a report of a smell of gas a water leak or other emergency.)

P.P.

[Paragon]

If you have an email from her saying that she is moving out on a certain date, I wouldn't lose too much sleep about entering the flat. You are only relying on information provided by the tenant, which should be enough.

However, perhaps she could state that the email never came from her, but from someone else.

[Paul_f]

Surrender of the keys is likely to indicate that the tenancy has ended, but an application to the court under the APP is the best remedy as she hasn't done so yet.
The tenant does not have to "sign" the S.21 Notice; in fact neither landlord nor tenant are required to do so.

[churton]

Just looking for some advice regarding a missing tenant.
Tenant moved in 1st August on a 6 month ast. She paid 3 months in advance as had no refs! I sent her a letter 2 weeks before next rent due (1st Nov). No rent recieved by 4th so delivered a reminder letter by hand. The property looked very quiet. Number unobtainable on contact number just given to us by letting agent. We plan to go have another look at property at weekend and maybe even ask neighbours if they no anything. I know its early days but something tells me she has done a bunk but when can we actually enter the property legally? Do we have to give 2 months notice to empty house! I wonder if anyone had similar problem and whats best procedure?
Thank you
Audrey

[Beeber]

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/blog/legal-briefing/tenant-absconded-%e2%80%93-abandonment#more-629

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm

Also, search the site for information on how to screen your future tenants - there are very good reasons why you should avoid tenants that are unwilling for their status to be verified.

[ippo73]

Hi,

I've been granted possession of my house (tenants refused to leave after a perfectly good section 21, court granted me possession in October).

The tenants want to wait until the bailiffs have evicted them - probably going for a council house - but I've just found out this won't be until January.

My question is, seeing that I've been legally granted possession by the court, can I enter the property when the tenants aren't in and change the locks? I think I remember reading something about this on here, but have searched for ages and can't find it.

Thanks a lot.

[Paul_f]

A solicitor Phillip Hopkins who wrote an article in the Lettings Update Journal about this some 3/4 years ago which if I remember correctly said he didn't see why not providing you used a key and did not enter forcibly, and you were sure there was nobody at home. The bailiffs appear to have no more powers than available to the landlord as they will not do anymore than threaten to involve the police should the occupants not comply with a court of law and vacate the premises; failure to comply with a Possession Order is Contempt of Court and a criminal offence. Bailiffs can't use anything other than "reasonable force" to evict occupants.

Another point is your occupants are no longer tenants, but trespassers, and therefore no longer protected under the Housing Acts or Landlord & Tenant Acts.

[sully1]

We were granted possession but have had to wait for the bailiffs as we were told they were now 'tolerated tresspassers', tolerated by who I don't know....why do we have to go through the bailiff procedure it just drags things out and gives the tenants more time. Good luck:mad:

[Lawcruncher]

A failure to comply with a Possession Order is Contempt of Court and a criminal offence.

It is necessary to serve a penal notice before the tenant can be committed for contempt. Failure to comply with such a notice is not in fact a criminal offence - it is civil contempt, though it can still lead to a fine or imprisonment.

[House]

We were granted possession but have had to wait for the bailiffs as we were told they were now 'tolerated tresspassers', tolerated by who I don't know....why do we have to go through the bailiff procedure it just drags things out and gives the tenants more time. Good luck:mad:

Hrm 'tolerated tresspassers' refer more to ex secure / assured tenants who remain can remain in occupation as long as they continue to pay their rent (and usually, but by no means always, something towards their arrears). It was first coined in Burrows v Brent I think.

Your lot are just people you can't get rid of, legally, without the Court enforcing the possession order if they don't want to shift it.

[johnboy]

A solicitor Phillip Hopkins who wrote an article in the Lettings Update Journal about this some 3/4 years ago which if I remember correctly said he didn't see why not providing you used a key and did not enter forcibly, and you were sure there was nobody at home. The bailiffs appear to have no more powers than available to the landlord as they will not do anymore than threaten to involve the police should the occupants not comply with a court of law and vacate the premises; failure to comply with a Possession Order is Contempt of Court and a criminal offence. Bailiffs can't use anything other than "reasonable force" to evict occupants.

Another point is your occupants are no longer tenants, but trespassers, and therefore no longer protected under the Housing Acts or Landlord & Tenant Acts.

Thats intresting paul.What is your view on it though?
If it is acceptable what is to stop you to getting a private bailiff instead of waiting on a court bailiff.

[House]

I don't believe you can use anything other than a Court appointed bailiff and this is why

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=The+protection+from+eviction+Act+&Year=1977&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=1499483&ActiveTextDocId=1499489&filesize=9467

I may well be wrong

[pickledpepper]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping to pick your brains again.

A few weeks ago I asked advice about a tenant who moved into one of my properties, paid the deposit and first months rent by cheque and a week later moved out, stopping the cheque. After speaking on the phone to her, I agreed that I would try to re-let the property, but she was responsible for the rent and my out of pocket expenses until I could find a suitable tenant. I backed the conversation up with a letter explaining that I required the first months rent which was now over due, a letter from her saying she wanted to end the tenancy agreement and the kays to the property. That is almost 2 weeks ago and I have not received a responce so where do I go from here.

Thanks in advance

Pete

[SALL]

Hi everyone,

I was hoping to pick your brains again.

A few weeks ago I asked advice about a tenant who moved into one of my properties, paid the deposit and first months rent by cheque and a week later moved out, stopping the cheque. After speaking on the phone to her, I agreed that I would try to re-let the property, but she was responsible for the rent and my out of pocket expenses until I could find a suitable tenant. I backed the conversation up with a letter explaining that I required the first months rent which was now over due, a letter from her saying she wanted to end the tenancy agreement and the kays to the property. That is almost 2 weeks ago and I have not received a responce so where do I go from here.

Thanks in advance

Pete

If you think the ex-tenant is in a position to be able to pay you the money she owes, then it is worth taking her to court for it.
If the person is unemployed and on benefits, you can still take her to court, but it will be hard to get anything out of her.

As for the keys issue, I would suggest she gives you the keys to the property and you also get a letter of early surrender signed from her. Other wise she might try illegal eviction on a later stage.

[jeffrey]

Lesson: L should not hand-over keys unless T has paid cleared funds for rent/deposit.

[pickledpepper]

I have asked for the keys back and a letter to confirm she no longer wants to live there, even saying that she is delaying the readvertising but as yet she has not sent them back. How soon can I apply to the courts for the outstanding rent.

Jeffrey, I have learned my lesson, albeit the hard way:o

[Paul_f]

If you want to accept surrender of the tenancy by accepting the keys then you should calculate the outstanding rent to that day and then use the online procedure to recover the money as a debt.

[pickledpepper]

If you want to accept surrender of the tenancy by accepting the keys then you should calculate the outstanding rent to that day and then use the online procedure to recover the money as a debt.

Does the surrender of the tenancy have to be when the keys are handed over, I agreed until I found a suitable tenant?

[jeffrey]

Does the surrender of the tenancy have to be when the keys are handed over, I agreed until I found a suitable tenant?
Let's say: old T must pay rent until the sooner of when:
a. new T becomes liable to pay rent; or
b. old T's fixed term expires.

[Charlesstunts]

One of my tenants broke her 1 year AST contract after 2 months in. She's fully aware of her liability and claims she'll simply counter claim for 3 x deposit amount for non protection. Late compliance she was sent a copy of her certificate she proceeded to move out. In an email to me she says she moved out on the 22nd Nov but to the other 3 tenants (who she has stopped talking to) she left a note saying she's moving out on the 28th Nov! Her last email to me she states again that she went in on the 28th to show a prospective tenant the room. Thats simply not true. I've told her to hand the keys over to one of the other tenants and she still hasn't done this!

So when can I get the locks changed?

She last paid rent in September and her deposit only covered her up until October.

She's not handed the keys back and not indicated she has any intention of doing so. Understandably the other tenants aren't happy and want the front door lock changed.

Members of the forum I call upon your advice! a thankyor

[mind the gap]

One of my tenants broke her 1 year AST contract after 2 months in. She's fully aware of her liability and claims she'll simply counter claim for 3 x deposit amount for non protection. Late compliance she was sent a copy of her certificate she proceeded to move out. In an email to me she says she moved out on the 22nd Nov but to the other 3 tenants (who she has stopped talking to) she left a note saying she's moving out on the 28th Nov! Her last email to me she states again that she went in on the 28th to show a prospective tenant the room. Thats simply not true. I've told her to hand the keys over to one of the other tenants and she still hasn't done this!

So when can I get the locks changed?

She last paid rent in September and her deposit only covered her up until October.

She's not handed the keys back and not indicated she has any intention of doing so. Understandably the other tenants aren't happy and want the front door lock changed.

Members of the forum I call upon your advice! a thankyor

Whoa! First please tell us :

1 Is this a joint AST, or was she just renting one, self-contained room? If a joint AST, presumably the deposit was a joint one too?
2 Are you happy for her to surrender the tenancy and walk away, or do you intend to sue her for the rent for the rest of the year/however long it takes to get another tenant in her room?
3 If you do pursue her, are you willing to take the risk that she will counterclaim for non-protection of deposit (although her chancess of getting the 3x penalty are very slim as you did protect it in the end).

[Charlesstunts]

Whoa! First please tell us :

1 Is this a joint AST, or was she just renting one, self-contained room? If a joint AST, presumably the deposit was a joint one too?
2 Are you happy for her to surrender the tenancy and walk away, or do you intend to sue her for the rent for the rest of the year/however long it takes to get another tenant in her room?
3 If you do pursue her, are you willing to take the risk that she will counterclaim for non-protection of deposit (although her chancess of getting the 3x penalty are very slim as you did protect it in the end).

1. She has an individual contract for one room but bills are shared with other tenants that she has been avoiding.
2. I have every intention of sueing her but will mitigate my losses by advertising the room. The problem there is that the room can't be shown to anyone else as she has the keys and I'm abroad. I'll have to send a copy of her key to the other tenants.
3. Yes I'm willing to take the risk as she hasn't asked for her deposit back but has stated I can use it as her last months rent. 2 wrongs don't make a right but her threat of a counterclaim is simple blackmail to get out of her contract. Her legal advisor being a friend and supplier of dead rats!

But I digress the current situation leaves the house unsecured and unsettles the other tenants who want to know quite rightly who has access to the house

[important]

Dear members
I initially rented out the property for 6 months to a person who left the property to her friend and moved out. This friend has changed the lock and disappeared without notice after couple of weeks leaving her belongings inside the property. She is not contactable and the agreement is coming to end soon. What can I do now to remove the belongings. Please suggest. Very much appreciated.

[mind the gap]

Dear members
I initially rented out the property for 6 months to a person who left the property to her friend and moved out. This friend has changed the lock and disappeared without notice after couple of weeks leaving her belongings inside the property. She is not contactable and the agreement is coming to end soon. What can I do now to remove the belongings. Please suggest. Very much appreciated.

Search 'abandoned goods' and 'disposal of goods' threads - there are several useful ones on this forum.

[Bel]

Dear members
I initially rented out the property for 6 months to a person who left the property to her friend and moved out. This friend has changed the lock and disappeared without notice after couple of weeks leaving her belongings inside the property. She is not contactable and the agreement is coming to end soon. What can I do now to remove the belongings. Please suggest. Very much appreciated.

Unless the tenancy is surrendered by her giving the keys back or a letter of surrender, or even by phone (from the tenant), T is still legally in posession and owing you rent. When the agreement ends, the tenancy will turn periodic and rent payable by the month (if it was always monthly payable) until the tenant serves 1 month notice. They do not need to give you notice if they vacate by the end of the fixed term.

If you let them know that rent will be payable until surrender, that may speed up the process.

Without surrender, you will need to serve them s21 notice which requires minimum 2 months, and then you apply to the court for possession.

[U187146]

So having served a Section 8 to evict a lying, non-paying tenant, got the court date - now they've decided (it appears) to vacate the property as the furniture has gone and neigbours have told me that large vans have been seen over the past few days. He still owes me around £4k and hasn't bothered returning the key or organising a check-out.

The contract was a 12 month AST and we are 4 months into this. I still have the court date and was wondering whether:

1. We are able to enter the property to check it out. Unofficially we may do this anyway in case the property has been left in a dangerous state, though wanted to check our legal position. We are good friends with a local policeman, if there are any grounds we could legitimately argue to enter the property.
2. Whether I should continue going to court under Section 8, given they appear to have left already.
3. What is the best way of getting my arrears and costs paid, or at least ensuring this tosser gets another CCJ to his name ?

It is also worth mentioning that the culprit is (or at least was) employed, earns a decent salary and i have his work address.

Any advice from those who have has a similar experience appreciated.

Thanks.

[jeffrey]

The danger to L is that taking too early entry to the property (= whilst the tenancy is still in force) may constitute trespass.

[U187146]

I've now had an email confirming that they have moved out and will be returning the keys today. Does this change matters at all ? If they have moved out already and if I accept this then should I still proceed with the court application ? My wife wants to get in to the property to sort it all out.

[U187146]

Surely we are able to check whether the heating has been left on, otherwise what happens if it all freezes up over Christmas ? The law is an ass if this would not be considered reasonable grounds for access if the tennant has confirmed in writing they have already left (and this is evident by the fact that their furniture has all gone).

[House]

Keep a copy of the email. If the tenant is coming over with the keys I'd get them to sign a deed of surrender just to be extra safe. Once done you have possession of your property back again and can do what you want.

[Preston]

Surely we are able to check whether the heating has been left on, otherwise what happens if it all freezes up over Christmas ? The law is an ass if this would not be considered reasonable grounds for access if the tennant has confirmed in writing they have already left (and this is evident by the fact that their furniture has all gone).

Hi

The key question is has the tenant, through their actions, offered to "surrender" their tenancy (i.e. give up possession)? If they have, you can then accept the surrender by entering into possession - and when you do this, the tenancy comes to an end.

The risk is that you enter into possession without sufficient evidence and the tenant reappears claiming that you have unlawfully evicted them.

In your case, though, you seem to have a pretty good case! They have moved their belongings out, they have emailed you saying they are leaving and they are returning the keys. If only we always had that amount of evidence!

Preston

[jeffrey]

I've now had an email confirming that they have moved out.
Be sure that the e-mail is provably from T, to avoid T denying it.

[jta]

Back in August, I had a tenant who broke his contract and abandoned a property. He left the property unlocked, lights on, water pouring all over the kitchen floor, all his Ikea junk still in situ, and , of course, did not pay his last month's rent. Fortunately my agents were able to contact his co-signer in Israel and agree an end to the tenancy, 31st September.
Since the place was seriously damaged, I repaired the floor in the kitchen as my first priority during September, it took about ten days during which time the tenant never showed up once. I had to lift the whole floor and replace everything. Along with other bits and pieces I worked out the costs, to me, as 703.80GBP plus his month's rent. I then re-rented it from 1st October.

I sacked the LA at this point, the only thing left for them to do was to sort out the deposit issue.

They recovered the rent, and after a bit of argy bargy paid that into my account.

I just sent an email to find out what is happening to the rest of it and got this answer back.

"I hope you are well. With regards to your email below. As I informed you on 02/12 via email the tenants were going to a solicitor over the disputed amount. To date we have heard nothing further."

That has now been 7 weeks and they have not chased it up. Can I insist that they go ahead with my claim without waiting further for a (probably non-existent) solicitor to get involved?

[Poppy35]

did the tenancy start before the TDS came into force? If not then tenants will of needed to register a dispute within 10 days of receiving notification from you/agent that monies were to be withheld from the deposit -

if all terms were complied with then an Independant Case Examiner can be appointed by the TDS to deal with this matter.

Me thinks the "solicitor" is a delaying tactic!!

[jta]

Sorry Jeffery, I must have thought it was a leap year or something. Read it as 'end of September'.

Poppy35, I'm sure it's a delaying tactic too, I think it's probably the LA though that just does not want to part with the money. This is the same crowd that thought they would dole out my six month rent payment in dribs and drabs last year.

Before I write back I'm hoping someone will provide me with the right words to get them off their fannies and do what they have been paid for. Pleeaasse :rolleyes:

[mind the gap]

That has now been 7 weeks and they have not chased it up. Can I insist that they go ahead with my claim without waiting further for a (probably non-existent) solicitor to get involved?

(It's OK, I'm in sackcloth and ashes.)

Why should you wait? As you say, this solicitor might not even exist. If he exists and if they are serious about disputing it, he'll no doubt materialise. In the meantime, I would get on and issue the claim (assuming deposit is not in a scheme, in which case you need to contact scheme to claim it shoudl be paid to you not to T). I think that you can insist that the deposit is transferred into your name as you have sacked the agent.; why should A have any more to do with it? It's nowt to do with them now, is it?

There - was that sensible enough?

Have I missed something vital here?

[jta]

I dunno about anything vital, This LA is a great big company and I think they are bonded or something regarding deposits, so I think the money is actually in their account. In any case they should sort it out as they were paid to do it.

Since it's now been 4 months since I regained possession, the issue should have been sorted out, without me chasing it.

I'll go back to them and point out the ten day thing Poppy35 pointed out. Then see what they say.

Any other suggestions anyone?

[jta]

Ok, Ive just sent this,

"Hello Kelly
Thanks for the response. As you know, where there is a dispute regarding deposits, the interested parties are required to notify the DPS within ten days of the end of the tenancy, enabling the dispute procedure to start.
It has now been very nearly four months since this tenancy ended. Your insistence on trying to contact the tenant for two months, and then doing nothing while you wait for a solicitor's letter for another two months is causing me a lot of stress.
I require that the procedure for recovering the deposit is initiated now.
I also want to know which scheme the deposit is protected under.
I want the unique id number for the account.
I want any contact information for my ex-tenant that you hold.

Please do not argue with me over this, I want this matter finished with.
Best regards

I'll keep you posted. :cool:

[jta]

It looks like I got the tone of the email right, I just got this:-


Thank you for your email.
I have spoken to my Head of Department regarding this matter and under the circumstances as we cannot contact the tenant the decision has been to release the outstanding deposit of £570.00 into your account. The payment will be made early next week and will be cleared funds in your account by next Friday.
I hope this will close the matter.
Regards
Kelly

MTG asked me what plan 'B' would have been, I had to say it would have involved a lot of SHOUTING. Glad I don't have to. :D
I'll put the 130 quid short down to experience.

[WarwickGrad]

Hi

If a tenant sign's a notice to quit letter, does this entitle me to gain possession of my property back and change the locks?

Thanks in advance

[Lawcruncher]

If a tenant sign's a notice to quit letter, does this entitle me to gain possession of my property back and change the locks?

In a word, no.

What exactly is your situation?

[WarwickGrad]

T has six month AST starting 24 June 2008.

T uses deposit for final month payment.

T was on Housing Benefit but stated work in Dec 2008 so it was cancelled.

T has signed a notice to quite giving one month notice from 24th December, to leave on 23rd Jan.

T, today states that while his possesion are in the room, he is leaving but wants a letter to give the council on Monday to state that his contract is over...

Can we know change the locks?

[Paul_f]

The only lawful way to bring an AST to an end is with a Court Order for Possession, unless by absolute surrender by the tenant, and anything signed by the tenant means diddly-squat

[Lawcruncher]

The only lawful way to bring an AST to an end is with a Court Order for Possession, unless by absolute surrender by the tenant, and anything signed by the tenant means diddly-squat

That seems to be suggesting that a correctly drawn and properly served tenant's notice to quit is not valid - it is. Such a notice brings a tenancy to an end on the date the notice expires.

The point is that if the tenant remains in occupation the landlord cannot get him out without an order for possession - see section 3 (1) of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977.

[Impartial Advice]

Hi all,

Having a big problem getting an answer to this one:

Tenant on AST outside of fixed term. Leaves property to stay at girlfriends for approx 8 weeks. Returns to property to find it gutted with a 'abandonment notice' on the door. Contents of 'notice' unknown but it would appear that the landlord had been unable to contact tenant after the break in in which all heating/water/electric/personal property was taken he assumed property abandoned and took possession. Tenant broke into the property weeks ago and has been living there and has had no contact with landlord and it has been suggested he has a legal right to occupy by local homeless team.

Realise the property is not fit to reside in as it has no basic amenities but clarity of weather a tenancy can be ended this way would help.

Tenant extremely chaotic and vunerable so excuse any missed points.

Thanks in advance

[WarwickGrad]

So just to clarify...

T has given one month notice to quit (further to his contract now being period rather then fixed).

T is still in property and now dosent want to leave because of an upcoming meeting with the council.

I as landlord now cannot force him out?? What was the point of him giving me the notce to quit?

[jeffrey]

Are you L, L's agent, T, or T's girlfriend?

[MrJohnnyB]

I always thought the general rule with abandonment was if the t left any significant personal possessions then this shows signs that the tenant is likely to re-occupy property and thus the court would usually rule in favour of the tenant. If the tenant had removed all objects effectively moving out then the court may rule in favour of the landlord.

[Poppy]

No you cannot force the tenant out without a court order.

We can only assume that at the time when the tenant's notice to vacate was given that was his intention. There is nothing to stop him changing his mind. :rolleyes: Annoying - yes.

Suggest that you keep communications friendly and open with the tenant. Resist using badgering questions such as "are you leaving or what?".

[Lawcruncher]

There is nothing to stop him changing his mind.

He cannot of course withdraw the notice to quit.

[Paul_f]

As you know, you can never assume the tenant has abandoned a property. Get a Possession Order I say. Better safe than sorry!

[Impartial Advice]

Are you L, L's agent, T, or T's girlfriend?

I am supporting the tenant.

[Impartial Advice]

I always thought the general rule with abandonment was if the t left any significant personal possessions then this shows signs that the tenant is likely to re-occupy property and thus the court would usually rule in favour of the tenant. If the tenant had removed all objects effectively moving out then the court may rule in favour of the landlord.

It appears it would be down to the court to decide. There is an argument for both as whoever broke into the flat removed EVERYTHING including pipes and electrics supporting landlords reasonable decision. But as it was not removed by tenant and no suggestion of surrender had been given supports the Tenant. At the moment we have the Local Authority homeless team suggesting a tenancy still in place and the landlord and solicitor adament the property has been abandoned... shuld have a resolution tomorrow hopefully.

[LandlordLee]

I think this could go either way.

If the tenant did not contact the landlord or was unable to be reached after it had being totally gutted, i think he acted fairly. At the end of the day he has obviously lost out too..

I would suggest that your client should find a new place and forget about it. Who would want to go and live in a property with no water/heating or basic stuff? Totally mad if you ask me. And the 'advice' given by some people such as the homeless team clearly has not helped. 'Break in and live in it, like a wolf'.

[emgrads]

Hi all.

I've recently vacated a property that I had an AST on. I only learned about the TDS recently, and have checked with the three schemes; the landlord definitely did not secure my deposit. He has also refused to return half of it, well, that's what he said, but it's well over the ten day limit and I've not seen any of it. Rent was all paid up, house was spotless, had it professionally cleaned. No reason to keep any deposit. I've been advised to file a claim in county court, with the claim being about not placing the deposit in a TDS.

As advised by Legal Aid, we sent a copy of the claim with a letter explaining to the landlord that he could pay the amount owed (deposit plus three times the amount of the deposit as a fine) within 14 days, or we would file the claim. He called back, called me the scum of the earth. His girlfriend then called my husband and tried to woo him into not claiming. They offered the original deposit (£500), and we were told to go for the full £2000. We thought we'd be nice and call it £1000. They've refused this offer and are now threatening to countersue.

Their countersuit is ridiculous, no basis in reality, I'm not worried about that. My question is: will the courts see our unwillingness to settle for the £500 as a super negative thing, or was that the right thing to do?

Thanks for any help in advance.

[mind the gap]

Hi all.

I've recently vacated a property that I had an AST on. I only learned about the TDS recently, and have checked with the three schemes; the landlord definitely did not secure my deposit. He has also refused to return half of it, well, that's what he said, but it's well over the ten day limit and I've not seen any of it. Rent was all paid up, house was spotless, had it professionally cleaned. No reason to keep any deposit. I've been advised to file a claim in county court, with the claim being about not placing the deposit in a TDS.

As advised by Legal Aid, we sent a copy of the claim with a letter explaining to the landlord that he could pay the amount owed (deposit plus three times the amount of the deposit as a fine) within 14 days, or we would file the claim. He called back, called me the scum of the earth. His girlfriend then called my husband and tried to woo him into not claiming. They offered the original deposit (£500), and we were told to go for the full £2000. We thought we'd be nice and call it £1000. They've refused this offer and are now threatening to countersue.

Their countersuit is ridiculous, no basis in reality, I'm not worried about that. My question is: will the courts see our unwillingness to settle for the £500 as a super negative thing, or was that the right thing to do?

Thanks for any help in advance.

It's not really up to you to start demanding your deposit and 3x the deposit to settle out of court. The principle underlying the TDS is that it prevents unscrupulous LLs keeping Ts' deposits when they have no good reason to. If LL returns it in full to you, that principle will have been adhered to, even if deposit was not protected.

If LL has offered you your full deposit back, my advice would be to take it. Otherwise, if you insist on court action, LL may rush off and lodge it with a scheme before the hearing. Very few LLs have actually been fined the 3x penalty when they have done this - most judges have taken the view that they have complied, albeit late, and the T hs been awarded the deposit back, but not the 3x.

In your case, the fact that you refused the whole deposit back and insisted on claiming, may just make you look greedy. You may win, but I suspect you will not and you may end up out of pocket because of the cost of the court action.

In reality the 3x penalty is meant as an ultimate sanction against LLs who did not protect and subsequently refuse to return Ts deposits, full stop. It would appear that your LL is not in this category.

[emgrads]

Huh. That's actually exactly what I thought, as it sounds reasonable. I wonder why the Legal Aid people said not to. Ah well. Will contact LL and settle for £500 then. Thank you.

[Paul Gibbs]

Huh. That's actually exactly what I thought, as it sounds reasonable. I wonder why the Legal Aid people said not to. Ah well. Will contact LL and settle for £500 then. Thank you.


Do you mean your solicitors or the Legal Services Commission?

[MrJohnnyB]

i also presume that your AST dates after the new regulations were introduced.

[jeffrey]

i also presume that your AST dates after the new regulations were introduced.
Deposit Protection started on 6 April 2007, for new ASTs- not those already existing, even if continuing (fixed-term or periodic) after then.

[Malone]

My tenant paid her rent for one year and she signed a new contract in January, her daughter moved out and now she claims she cant pay the rent. (even though she has a brand new car).

She paid January's (late) and hasn't paid since. In a few days she will be 2 months in arrears and at which point we are going to start the section 8/21 process.

The problem is this T works for legal aid and knows ALL her rights. She emailed me to tell me she didnt care for my financial situation, she was changing the locks and that I should seek legal adivce!

This is all new to me as I only rent out my house to pay the mortgage and dont live in England anymore.

I have a few questions I was hoping someone can help me with:

1. Can we get her money out of the DPS to cover the unpaid rent?

2. I have just got copies of the original credit check documents and it states that they approve her "subject to acceptable proof of residence". On her application form for the credit check the address is has put is that she is staying with friends. If this proof of address was never obtained by the letting agent who we paid to get the credit check done are the letting agents liable for any of this?? If they didnt prove her address then surely the credit approval is invalid?

3. If she dissappears in the middle of the night prior to the court hearing which I am presuming is the route we will have to go down - how can I make sure this affects her credit rating and gets a CCJ to make sure it is difficult for her to do it again.

4. What public records are available for me to check whether she has done this before? Can I find out for myself whether she has any previous CCJ's?

5. I am thinking of using Landlord Action to get her out - has anyone used them before, were they good?

6. Has anyone had any success freezing their mortgages when tenants havent been paying?

Any other advice anyone may have would be much appreciated!

Also am I entitled to any kind of legal aid????
Thanks

[soon2retire]

I am new to the forum and have been working my way through many many posts, many which seem to have "conflicting" information.
However, I found this reply to be very well done with all the questions answered clearly, short and to the point.
Well done Paul Gibbs - I hope I get as good and clear a reply when I eventually post something.

[susanne]

if you live abroad - who manages your property and what address for service is in your AST ?

[Malone]

I used my parents address in England. Does this make a difference?

Also we have now served section 8 - is she doesnt respond to this and we apply to the court how long does it take to get a court date? Are there any ways of speeding up the process? Who deals with this at the court house?

Also at what point should we be applying to the small claims court for the arrears? I dont think she will ever pay BUT I want her to get a CCJ so she doesnt get off scot free!

Any adivce would be great.
Thanks

[landladysmith]

I have a tenant in my property, he signed for 6 months last year and has since signed for another 6 months on an AST. He has had an inspection of the property which showed that the locks had been changed and devices fitted to the rear of the property to prevent access. He has been asked to supply keys, as per contract. I received a letter asking me to only contact via letter as anything else was harassment. I asked in a letter for the copy of the new keys, quoting the clause of the contract. I now have a letter asking me not to send any other letters as this is harassment! Many other problems too. His 'partner' has moved in but she is not on AST. Anyway, Am I within my rights to serve a Section 8? He has 4 months left on AST. Advice please! LLS

[mind the gap]

I have a tenant in my property, he signed for 6 months last year and has since signed for another 6 months on an AST. He has had an inspection of the property which showed that the locks had been changed and devices fitted to the rear of the property to prevent access. He has been asked to supply keys, as per contract. I received a letter asking me to only contact via letter as anything else was harassment. I asked in a letter for the copy of the new keys, quoting the clause of the contract. I now have a letter asking me not to send any other letters as this is harassment! Many other problems too. His 'partner' has moved in but she is not on AST. Anyway, Am I within my rights to serve a Section 8? He has 4 months left on AST. Advice please! LLS

You can serve a section 8 if you can prove that your T is in breach of contract, but a possession order would be discretionary rather than mandatory. It's worth a try if you are desperate to get him out, but if he is paying his rent and not otherwise causing you grief, I would save myself the money and just issue a s21 to require possession on the day after the last day of his tenancy. It's cheaper and a possession order is certain if he does not move out.

You have protected his deposit, I take it?

[Poppy]

On what grounds do you propose to issue a section 8 notice?

Also issue a section 21 notice that expires on the last day of the fixed term.

Why did you sign a second six month tenancy?

Remind them that you must have the keys at the end of the tenancy or they must reinstate the original lock. From their actions so far, I see no reason to barge in demanding keys at this point.

Continue contact through letters - you have to. These people are jokers. :rolleyes:

[lorenzo]

Why would you evict if all else is OK?

Every time you change tenants you take on risk.

Risk of voids
Risk of worse tenants who:
Wont let you in at all
Trash the place
Don't pay
Allow general dilapidation - poor care
etc

Why is eviction always the first recourse?

[landladysmith]

Thanks, I have protected the deposit. I do not want to evict the tenant, but they have threatened me with harassment, simply for asking once for the new keys, as this is what the tenancy agreement states. The fact that they say to only correspond in letters and after 1 letter, they now say I must not send any more letters makes me feel like I'm in limbo with the whole situation. Having been threatened by someone who's not on the tenancy agreement on the phone, I just wish there was an easier way.

[lorenzo]

Normally tenants change locks etc if they believe the landlord is or is likely to enter without notice or without regard to their privacy. Some are just paranoid from previous experiences or because of stuff they have heard about second hand.

It may or may not be your fault, I don't know and certainly not accusing, but they could have a story which has caused this behaviour.

[landladysmith]

I see. Yes could well be the case. He has said I had been in the property as an internal door was open one evening when he got home, however I live at the opposite end of the country. Personally I think it is something other than that, but that would be jumping to conclusions. Have done everything above board and to fit in with them, guess I just have to sit it out. should I be concerned about other adults living at the property? I guess as long as I am being paid I should just be grateful! The damage done to fit security devices to the rear double glazed door are also a concern to me, but this is why we have deposits eh. Thanks.

[Paragon]

They could also be professional tenants whose next step is stop paying rent. The harassment overtures could just be a warm up for the real game.

[snakeeyes21]

is it just me or does this not seem right?
why would anybody want to serve a S8 for a tenant changing the locks?
part of many contents insurance is that the policy holder and immediate family are the only key holders.
the tenant is perfectly within their rights to change the locks if they believe somebody has or will gain access to their home without their permission.
does the letting agent have a key? mabe they gained access illegally, and to the person who suggested using the gas inspector to do an inspection to the property, im no legal expert but thats the worst advice ive ever heard and would advise against it

[mind the gap]

part of many contents insurance is that the policy holder and immediate family are the only key holders.


I think you are referring to owner-occupier policies.

Most landlord insurance assumes the LL has a set of keys in order to gain emergency access, but given the tenants' 'right' to change locks, this cannot be enforced except by court order by which time tenancy may well have ended anyway.

As to your question why anyone would want to serve a s8 to a tenant who changes locks, (and does not inform LL or supply them with a key) then I, for one, would seriously consider it.

Tenants usually change locks (and withold keys from LL) either because

(i) relations with LL have deteriorated/broken down to the point of non-communication and mutual distrust, and/or
(ii) Ts want to conduct illegal activity (e.g. growinf, maunfacturing or dealing in illegal drugs) on the premises

In both cases I would probably be unhappy to allow the tenancy to continue any longer than it had to, although a s21 is probably more appropriate in this case if the rent is being paid and there are no big issues with antisocial behaviour or other s8 grounds.

Furthermore, as has been mentioned above, it may a health and safety issue since the LL cannot carry out the usual fire safety checks and inspections. I would agree with Wickerman's suggestions about that issue, though, assuming gas engineer is allowed access.

[Lawcruncher]

Ideally:

1. Every time there is a change of tenant the locks should be changed in case the previous tenant kept a copy of the keys or allowed someone to have the keys who made copies.

2. The landlord or agent should keep the keys under secure conditions and on no account contemplate entering the property without the tenant's consent unless there is a genuine emergency.

Any tenant who is not a simple and trusting soul should seriously consider changing the locks the day he moves into a property in case the ideal conditions have not been met. He should certainly change the locks if the landlord or agent announces he is coming in whether the tenant likes it or not.

Where the tenancy agreement prohibits changing the locks, unless informed by the tenant that the locks have been changed or access could not be obtained in case of emergency, a landlord cannot really go to court and complain because he will have to admit that the only way he could have discovered the locks had been changed was when he or his agent attempted to gain access without consent in breach of the covenant for quiet enjoyment.

[mind the gap]

Ideally:

1. Every time there is a change of tenant the locks should be changed in case the previous tenant kept a copy of the keys or allowed someone to have the keys who made copies.

2. The landlord or agent should keep the keys under secure conditions and on no account contemplate entering the property without the tenant's consent unless there is a genuine emergency.

Any tenant who is not a simple and trusting soul should seriously consider changing the locks the day he moves into a property in case the ideal conditions have not been met. He should certainly change the locks if the landlord or agent announces he is coming in whether the tenant likes it or not.

Where the tenancy agreement prohibits changing the locks, unless informed by the tenant that the locks have been changed or access could not be obtained in case of emergency, a landlord cannot really go to court and complain because he will have to admit that the only way he could have discovered the locks had been changed was when he or his agent attempted to gain access without consent in breach of the covenant for quiet enjoyment.

Point 1 : This isn't really the issue, but yes, I agree.

Point 2 : I agree up to a point, although I think you are assuming the worst of people. Most tenants (fortunately) do not seem to feel the need to change the locks the minute they move in, because they want to have a good relationship with their landlord and they understand that locking him out would compromise that. Goodwill on both sides would be sacrificed.

Changing the locks with no reason to believe the LL will force access, seems uneccessarily antagonistic to me, whether or not T has the right to do so.

[lorenzo]

Changing the locks with no reason to believe the LL will force access, seems uneccessarily antagonistic to me, whether or not T has the right to do so.

It may not be directed at the LL, but as a security measure to prevent unauthorized keyholders from entering. e.g. previous tenants or other assorted villains who may have acquired a key somehow.

Of course if T trusts L, he/she should supply a copy, but at the beginning of a tenancy, T has no idea if L is trustworthy.

Let's face it, LL has tacitly shown distrust of T via the referencing process (errr.. rather overtly actually). There are no grounds for automatic trust in T/L relationship.

[sangina]

Apparently you can only get contents insurance with a certain type of door lock. If that is why the tenant has changed the locks, and the tenant has informed you of these changes, then there should be no issues.

I only know this because our neighbour had to change his door lock (out of own pocket LL stated) from a simple door lock to another kind of lock. I am too blonde to remember that kind of thing.

[Lawcruncher]

Point 1 : This isn't really the issue, but yes, I agree.

I agree it is not the issue in this thread, but in to my way of thinking is the more important of the two reasons for changing the locks. Whenever acting for the purchaser of a property I recommended changing the locks. The same principle has to apply to taking a tenancy.

As to landlords/agents having keys, if new locks were installed, or indeed if the tenant changes the locks, there is perhaps not a strong reason for denying the landlord a key until he gets stroppy.

[mind the gap]

Let's face it, LL has tacitly shown distrust of T via the referencing process (errr.. rather overtly actually). There are no grounds for automatic trust in T/L relationship.

I see your point, however...pragmatically, it is not unreasonable human behaviour to take some (reasonable) steps to make sure the person you are letting to is not likely to be a maniac, impecunious, a liar, etc.

All landlords should also, in my view, have to pass some sort of financial and CRB referencing process (like the one necessary before being granted an HMO licence), before allowed to rent property out.

However having satisfied these check, equally pragmatically, it makes for a much more successful relationship - and therefore a happier and less frought tenancy (for both parties) - if the starting point is an assumption that the other party is a decent human being unless he or she proves otherwise.

[landladysmith]

1) Locks were new and to the standards required for insurance etc
2) No-one has been in the property, except at T's wish to have valuation and to repair a broken fixture, both with T present.
3) Only know locks have been changed as T said so when asked about the locks that have been screwed to the inside of back door, and because they are fitted badly, have ruined the door. Actually admitted the locks had been changed to prevent LL or agent access, though LL and agent have no reason to access property.

S21 seems to be appropriate action, though I agree with Paragon...hope this isn't just a warm-up...

[Ruth Less]

As to landlords/agents having keys, if new locks were installed, or indeed if the tenant changes the locks, there is perhaps not a strong reason for denying the landlord a key until he gets stroppy.

Agreed, or of course until the agent shows signs of incompetence.

The agent I rent off is mainly an estate agent with letting also. They seem to have little idea of who has the keys. Examples:

1. A plumber for the builder was sent in to do a repair. I was present and phoned in to the agent that the repair was complete. Several days later I catch another plumber attempting to gain access with the key. The only reason he didn't get far is that the chain happened to be on the front door. On asking what he was doing he said he'd come to do the repair that was completed the week before! I'd had no notification of this second visit which wasn't needed anyway.

2. The boiler man due to conduct the gas inspection and I ask for the agents to inspect on the same day as that's due. Boiler man attends early as he does not have keys to the other properties he is due to visit so decides to visit me first instead of last. So I'm caught on the hop but let him in anyway. He asks me for the agents number so the agent can get the other keys brought over. When agent arrives there is a five minute pow-wow between the boiler man and agent in which agent explains that she can't locate all the keys needed for the other properties and that's for gas inspections that were booked in advance!

In short the agent has very lax key tracking. Apart from that they are nice enough. Do I trust them with the keys - no.

The other case is of course where a property is advertised by more than one agent and one agent doesn't inform the others that the property is let. Or where a let property is for sale and the selling agent doesn't respect the tenant's rights. In these cases the second agent can walk in on the tenant unannounced.

So reasons for T to want the lock changed are not necessarily other than suspecting the various agents of incompetence and bad communication within the one office or with other agents and tradesmen.

[jayc001]

My problem tenant has appeared to have moved out before I set the wheels in motion for a court hearing. AST expeired 6 months ago and has been on a periodic since.

2 weeks ago she sent a text saying she would move out on Wednesday 29th April and return the keys.

Property seems empty apart from some rubbish left outside.

No keys have been returned and my keys no longer work (must have changed the locks at some point).

I now have a new tenant that whilst can't move in till end of the month is very very keen to get inside the property to measure up and get things planned.

I've had no response for 4 days day to calls or messages to old tennant.

How long do I need to wait before I can get a locksmith to gain entry?

[jayc001]

From reading the above I can only assume a court order is needed before I can lawfully gain entry?

If so how would that work as the tenant can't be served with the court order as I have no idea where she is currently living.

My current plan is at the weekend to gain entry, change the locks and leave a note on the door informing the tenant of such. I assume I'm leaving myself open for a case of illegal eviction but is that really likely?

[SALL]

From reading the above I can only assume a court order is needed before I can lawfully gain entry?

If so how would that work as the tenant can't be served with the court order as I have no idea where she is currently living.

My current plan is at the weekend to gain entry, change the locks and leave a note on the door informing the tenant of such. I assume I'm leaving myself open for a case of illegal eviction but is that really likely?

Can you not contact her at all (Mobile number etc)? getting her to return the keys and surrendering the tenancy will be the easiest option.

The tenant will be served the court order at the property you are requesting possession for.

Not sure about your last question.

[Ericthelobster]

I assume I'm leaving myself open for a case of illegal eviction but is that really likely?Only you can answer that based on your knowledge of the particular tenant. Is she the sort who might be likely to try to entrap you?

If you do decide to go in, at least cover your back as much as you can by assuming she will try to do so, and then act accordingly to minimise her chances. Eg, get independent witness to agree the place is apparently abandoned; make sure you keep her and your text messages; etc

[jayc001]

Spoke to the LHA officer who had been dealing with myself and the tenant since she got behind with her rent (He has been a very helpful guy actually) and he gave her a push in the right direction and keys returned last night.

New tenant is over the moon as he was able to measure up last night. :)

[Garym]

Hi all
I have a tenant from hell, who could even be satan himself! I rented or rather my partner rented to ( against my wishes ) a young couple who were expecting a baby, the man was supposedly working but 2 weeks into the AST we received a housing benefit application to fill in landlords details. The couple had a guarantor, but even then the rent was often late. As we were fed up with constant late payments we issued a notice to quit through a solicitor, during this process the couple split up with the male tenant remaining in the property. I had the guarantor contact me asking for the deposit he had put up because his stepdaughter had moved out of the property, and said he was no longer liable for anything connected to it.
I am not sure where I stand with the guarantor as the AST had expired and the tenancy was deemed to continue, with no new AST drafted for the male occupant and the female tenant has never stated verbally or in writing that she had relinquished her status as tenant, which I had requested. I think I was right in telling him that he was guarantor for both parties for the duration of occupancy, and so was still liable.
The remaining tenant moved a friend into the property saying that would make up the full monthly rent due, and again my partner ( too soft hearted for her own good ) agreed to let them stay providing the rent was paid on time. Because of the trouble with getting rent from the tenant we insisted that the HB be paid direct which turned out be be less than the amount stated due to the tenants being overpaid prior to the direct payment method.
I went to the property ( 40 quid in fuel ) to find the flat looking like a squat, I got them to pay 140 of the 720 now oweing and stated that a s21 was being sought. The tenants friend contacted me today saying that he thinks the tenant has moved out, i,m pretty sure that no utility bills have been paid which may have prompted him to leave.
As the notice to quit period has expired and the tenant apparently gone, plus also the friend is moving out, would I be breaking the law if I then secured the property? the stuff left behind looks mainly like junk and there are 2 boxes of videos and cds by the front gate, as though the tenant was giving away what he didnt want. I only get the tenants answer phone from his mobile when calling him and the friend cannot contact the tenant but says he has left, anyone got any advice that I could use? I am going to the property tomorrow with a camera to record the state of the flat which will easily swallow the deposit.

[Garym]

HI
Taking a camera was just an after thought, as there is a wreck of a motorcycle on the path outside the flat which another of my tenants has to get round to access his flat. I am going to move the vehicle to avoid any health and safety issues with my other tenant. I looked into this first and got told that I can have it moved as it is an obstruction plus it has petrol in it, so I want to get photographic evidence to justify my actions and also photograph all the other damage.
Now I have spoken with the tenants friend, I have arranged to check the property getting a better idea as to whether or not the tenant has gone.
If the tenant has had it on his heels do you think I still need to go the expence of court proceedings? after all, we have asked him to quit the property and if his possessions are gone its likely that he has to.
I would think that if the tenants baseball bat is not at the property then he has gone, ( no joke ) this tenant has over the past months answered the door with a bat hidden behind his leg. To give the full image, is an image of a skinhead with tattooed arms broken teeth and lumps and cuts on his face and doesnt seem to mind displaying drug taking evidence or nazi swastikas.
If he wanted to rent again I wouldnt even concider him for a cave.

[Garym]

Hi
We paid a letting agents 300 + vat to find and vet the tenants, which included a credit reference check on both tenants and the guarantor. All checked out fine, no bad credit at all. The personal and work references I took with a pinch of salt, but did think by paying to have them checked would give us decent tenants, not so.

[mind the gap]

Hi
We paid a letting agents 300 + vat to find and vet the tenants, which included a credit reference check on both tenants and the guarantor. All checked out fine, no bad credit at all. The personal and work references I took with a pinch of salt, but did think by paying to have them checked would give us decent tenants, not so.


If the cost of restoring the flat to its original state far exceeds the deposit, go after the tenant and his guarantor via moneyclaimonline. You will need detailed inventories as evidence of course.

[ladyland]

My three tenants have left my property without notice and owing two month’s rent.
The property has been left in a disgusting state with furniture bought less than a year ago broken, soiled and covered with cigarette burns and will need to be replaced. I have managed to contact two of them by phone but they neither care nor want to know. The Guarantor has also disappeared and I have no way of contacting him. Even with the deposit I will be approximately £2,000 out of pocket.
Is there ANYTHING I can do or is it yet another story of them just getting away with it. My Landlord’s insurance does not cover loss of rent or malicious damage (I wonder why I even have it?). Any suggestions welcome. Thanks.

[Beeber]

Do you hold a dual signed inventory/schedule of condition?

If the deposit should have been protected in a Tenancy Deposit Scheme, did you lodge it there?

Did you undertake full tenant/guarantor screening at the outset of the tenancy and hold full information on them from a completed tenancy application form (date of birth, copy of photo ID, NI numbers, etc)?

Was it a joint tenancy agreement for all tenants or did you issue individual ASTs?

[ladyland]

Yes I do have a signed inventory and the deposit was lodged with the Tenancy Deposit Scheme.
The tenant/guarantor screening was done by the Letting Agent and it is a joint tenancy agreement

[Preston]

Yes I do have a signed inventory and the deposit was lodged with the Tenancy Deposit Scheme.
The tenant/guarantor screening was done by the Letting Agent and it is a joint tenancy agreement

So, your remedy is to sue them for the arrears and for any damage they have caused beyond fair wear and tear. As they are joint tenants, you can sue any or all of them for the full amount owed.

[Garym]

Hi again

Yes I had a comprehensive inventory done as part of the agents package, so that will back up any claim.
I went to the property yesterday and the friend of the T told me that the T had told him on the phone that he will not be returning.
New problem posed now, the T has left behind a snake in a large glass tank, and a Staff pup. I told the friend who has agreed to vacate next weekend to contact the RSPCA to report them as abandoned by the T. If the friend has the animals removed am I liable by instructing the friend to do this.
Also If the T has left for good as he has stated to a third party, can I change the locks and clear the rubbish? or could this T at a later date demand access?
The tenancy agreement has expired as well as the notice to quit. I am unlikely to get anything in writing from him to say he has moved out, so if he sent a text stating this could I take that as evidence? any sugguestions?

[mind the gap]

Hi again

Yes I had a comprehensive inventory done as part of the agents package, so that will back up any claim.
I went to the property yesterday and the friend of the T told me that the T had told him on the phone that he will not be returning.
New problem posed now, the T has left behind a snake in a large glass tank, and a Staff pup. I told the friend who has agreed to vacate next weekend to contact the RSPCA to report them as abandoned by the T. If the friend has the animals removed am I liable by instructing the friend to do this.
Also If the T has left for good as he has stated to a third party, can I change the locks and clear the rubbish? or could this T at a later date demand access?
The tenancy agreement has expired as well as the notice to quit. I am unlikely to get anything in writing from him to say he has moved out, so if he sent a text stating this could I take that as evidence? any sugguestions?

The evidence seems pretty conclusive (that he has left), and although in an ideal world it would be preferable to have either the keys or something in writing from T that he has surrended the tenancy, the fact that the tenancy has expired, combined with the apparent abandonment by T, should be sufficient to prove the tenancy no longer exists. I think you will be within your rights to change the locks on the grounds that you are concerned about security. You may wish to text the T telling him you are doing this and that he can contact you if he needs access to get his stuff.

Contact the RSPCA early this week - don;t leave it until T2 has gone or you may end up looking after the animals yourself:eek: Don't go there!

Put 'abandoned goods' into the LLZ search and you will learn what you can and cannot do.

[Garym]

Hi
Thanks for that. I phoned the T today and was suprised that he actually answered his phone for once, I had the call on speaker so my partner could hear, and he said he has vacated. I have written down word for word what was said and logged the date and time, plus the call to his number is logged in my phone. I asked him about his pets and he has said he will sort it out.
Hopefully this is the end of a bad tenant without the need for the courts after all.

[B00mer]

Hi, I am new to this site and a new landlord. My tenants have just moved out of my house after 6 months, the house was checked by the agents and a good report given. When I checked the house I found the glass ceramic hob had a 9 inch crack through it. I spoke to the agents and they said I was unlikely to get the full amount from the DPS to replace this item as it was 3 1/2 years old.
I bought the house from new in Oct 2005.
I find it difficult to believe that I will not get the full cost of a replacement.

Are the agents correct in this?

[Lawcruncher]

If the hob still functions I do not think there is any chance. If it does not, the very best you can hope for is to be paid a sum equal to the cost of a three year old hob.

[ladyland]

Thanks very much for your reply. I have heard from one of my tenants who now tells me he didn't even move in at the start of the tenancy..........says he wrote to my agent within 7 days cancelling tenancy and returning the keys (HE DIDN'T DO THIS). You can't cancel a signed tenancy agreement - so - 9 months later I'm taking him to court as he signed a JOINT tenancy agreement.....watch this space!

[Paul Gibbs]

Thanks very much for your reply. I have heard from one of my tenants who now tells me he didn't even move in at the start of the tenancy..........says he wrote to my agent within 7 days cancelling tenancy and returning the keys (HE DIDN'T DO THIS). You can't cancel a signed tenancy agreement - so - 9 months later I'm taking him to court as he signed a JOINT tenancy agreement.....watch this space!


You can also sue the guarantor. Check that the T's have the funds to pay (and also G).

[ladyland]

Thanks for writing. I can't go after the Guarantor because he's disappeared without trace. Two of the tenants probably wouldn't be able to pay but the third one is a different matter (the one who says he never moved in). I've sent him a very detailed letter setting out the fact that he signed a joint tenancy agreement. I've given him until the end of June to pay overdue rental and damage to property, after which time I will take legal proceedings.
Hope this is correct?

[Poppy]

You are able to serve notice of claim at the guarantor's last known address.

[ladyland]

Can someone confirm that I am correct in thinking that once an ASH is signed by all tenants it cannot be broken until the agreed term is up - i.e. is there a cooling off period???

[jeffrey]

Can someone confirm that I am correct in thinking that once an ASH is signed by all tenants it cannot be broken until the agreed term is up - i.e. is there a cooling off period?
What is an ASH?
If you meant 'AST', then: no, there is no cooling-off period once it has started. Signing by tenants is irrelevant.

[Ozone]

Tenancy commenced 01/03/09 in joint names, now they have split up and vacated the property owing two months rent to June 2009.

Can I claim the rent for the full period of the AST to the end of August 2009?

If so, should I persue it through the small claims court?

Thanks for any advice.

Dave.

[jeffrey]

Tenancy commenced 01/03/09 in joint names, now they have split up and vacated the property owing two months rent to June 2009.

Can I claim the rent for the full period of the AST to the end of August 2009?

If so, should I pursue it through the small claims court?
Yes, in principle.
1. The tenancy runs until/inc. 31 August 2009, assuming that you granted it for six months.
2. So the tenants are jointly and severally liable until then: both of them.
3. Only if they agree with you a formal Surrender (or they acquiesce in you re-letting it before then) will their liability end early.
4. Suing them is worthwhile only if they have £££ with which to pay you.

[Ozone]

thanks Jeffrey,

yes it was for 6 months

obviously I will try to find another tenant as soon as possible to mitigate any loss of rent, but would like to take action to recover the lost rent

the couple have split but he's a surveyor and has a decent job, I believe, well according to his application and employers reference he does, so I think it's worth the effort

as technically their term has not expired do I need to get some form of confirmation from them before renting to another T?

cheers
Dave

[jeffrey]

As technically their term has not expired do I need to get some form of confirmation from them before renting to another T?
Yes. Until old term ends, by expiry/surrender/etc.:
a. old T is entitled to the premises; and conversely
b. you as L are entitled to demand the rent.

[Ozone]

thanks for the advice, really helpful

do you know whether there are any draft, or sample deeds of surrender around ?

or will I need to go to an expensive guy in a suit????

cheers
Dave

[jeffrey]

thanks for the advice, really helpful

do you know whether there are any draft, or sample deeds of surrender around ?

or will I need to go to an expensive guy in a suit????

cheers
Dave
Don't ask me; I'm an expensive guy in a suit, according to you.

[landladysmith]

Hi again
T was served s21, expired last week but they did not leave.
T called agency who are re-letting property to say keys would be with them by today (fri). Therefore, I have not gone through accelerated possesion, gave them benefit of the doubt!
The T has gone, neighbours saw the van load and go, no sign of possessions through the windows etc but the keys have not been returned. What can I do now?
Some work needs to be done on the property before re-letting. T is unobtainable on the contact numbers given. I am also not sure if T has changed locks back to originals.
Thanks!

[teeps]

the first thing you must do is try your set of keys to find out if they still work and if they do you can enter to secure the property, so long as you are sure they have gone.

[landladysmith]

ok, so if they do fit, then everything is fine and I can't get anymore grief from the tenant?
If they don't, what then? change the locks?
I can just imagine him turning up and insisting he is being harassed or that I have illegally gained entry...:(

[jta]

the first thing you must do is try your set of keys to find out if they still work and if they do you can enter to secure the property, so long as you are sure they have gone.

Do NOT do that! If the tenant returned he could cause you a lot of trouble. Read up on abandonment on this forum.

[landladysmith]

I read up on abandonment, but each case tends to be when the tenant has left and the contract still exists. I'm just a bit confused as our contract has ended including the s21 too. A legal firm recommended I enter the property with a witness and change the locks, leaving a note for old tenant to get in touch for keys (but only if there was any evidence that there were belongings there to collect etc).
I am sitting tight but losing money, they withheld last months rent and I cannot re-let until I get this whole thing sorted. I am prepared to lose the months new rent if I would otherwise be breaking the law!

[Myrtle]

Tenant hasn't paid his last rent instalment, so I went round to check what was going on (gave him correct notice etc.)

The place is empty, and neighbours say that they saw him moving everything out 3 weeks ago. It's in a complete state - covered in cat poo etc.

Tenant is ignoring all calls, and I have no other address for him except for a guarantor (who I assume is his mother).

Can I legally enter the property, clean it up and put it back on the market?

[J4L]

Do you have any keys that have been returned?
A notice maybe?

Something that would suggest that he has in fact gone?

If none of the above, contact the guarantor, that's what she's there for, and whilst your on the phone ask her for the outstanding monies! She'll soon tell you of the tenants whereabouts once she realises you are asking her for it.

[Myrtle]

thanks J4L. No keys, no notice, no acknowledgment at all - he's clearly burying his head in the sand, and I doubt I'll hear from him again.

I'll definitely chase the guarantor for the monies and whereabouts - but that could take a while, and I need to get it back on the market asap.

Do I have to wait to hear from her?

[J4L]

Bit of a tricky one as you've not received notice nor a 'surrender' of the property by the tenant returning keys.
I think you should place an abandonment notice on the door stating that you think the property has been abandoned and that you give him 14 days to collect any or all of his belongings if there's anything there.

[J4L]

Ideally you should be getting a court order but of course that's going to take time.
Your best bet is the Guarantor for this one.

Obviously make sure that the property is secure if it's not then change the locks but ensure you put a telephone number on the abandonment notice so that if the tenant returns he can still get 'access'.

Chances are you are not going to see this guy again as he's owing money but err on the side of caution just in case.

[SJD256]

Hi All,

After what has been months of messing about I finally managed to get an
eviction notice against tenants in my property on the 10th of September -
they were given 14 days to vacate the premises.

The case was adjourned for a month as the tenant "was at hospital" - when
it finally did get to court they did not appear or enter a defence.

I was awarded back rent and costs totaling nearly three thousand pounds
but in all likelihood don't expect to see that anytime soon (if at all) :mad:

At no time in the past two months have they replied to any attempts at
contacting them - nor have they attempted to contact us (apart from
ringing the solicitor to say they couldn't appear in court). They were however
quite clearly living in the property.

Anyway I am currently working in Cyprus but have had a neighbour keeping
an eye out in case they just left leaving doors open etc.

They have just contacted me today saying that the tenants haven't been spotted
at the property for several days. The lights have been left on and some
small windows left open.

What rights do I have now??

Can I get the letting agent to go round and try and gain access??

With some windows left open and lights on I am worried about the
security of the property and would appreciate any advice that you
may have please.

If they knock on the door and get no answer can they try the key and if
no one is there just change the locks??

Many thanks in advance for any assistance.

Cheers

Steve

[jta]

Hi All,


Anyway I am currently working in Cyprus but have had a neighbour keeping
an eye out in case they just left leaving doors open etc.

They have just contacted me today saying that the tenants haven't been spotted
at the property for several days. The lights have been left on and some
small windows left open.

What rights do I have now??

Can I get the letting agent to go round and try and gain access??

Steve

You should wait until your agent is accompanied by a bailiff, otherwise you are opening yourself up to a can of worms. Having said that, there is nothing to stop you asking your neighbour friend to go there and hammer on the door a few times, as a concerned neighbour only you understand. If he spots the keys on the mat inside the door, then they have probably done a moonlight flit, even then, go through the 'abandonment' note on door procedures. You can search the forum to find out how to do it. Above all do not open yourself up to a charge of illegal eviction.

[SJD256]

Hi JTA,

Many thanks for the prompt reply but grrrrrr :mad: not directed at you but
at the law!

I don't believe these tenants ever had any intention to pay more than a
couple of months and now after owing a few thousand I still have to wait!

In the meantime the place could be robbed or worse burn down with the
lights being left on for several days and goodness knows what else they
have left on or what state they have left it in. After ringing the neighbour
they told me they had two dogs there which was against the terms but
hey ho I have to wait!!!

Been a landlord for years - consider myself to be fair and haven't had any
real problems like this before. It is IMHO so stacked up against the LL now
that I feel just like selling the properties and getting out of it.

Thanks again for your reply though and apologies for the rant - it is just very
frustrating!

Cheers

Steve

[jta]

I don't believe these tenants ever had any intention to pay more than a
couple of months and now after owing a few thousand I still have to wait!


That's exactly the reason you have to do it properly, if they are 'professional' tenants they may be waiting for you to make a mistake, and that could cost you dearly.

At the moment a bit of nosey parkering by your neighbour is your best bet.

Good luck with it.

[mali786]

I have had a new tenant since 24th June09 in my property. Since 17th August they stopped paying me the rent and they have also not paid any deposit. I have issued a section 8 and section 21 notice and now applied to the court through the PCOL system, with a court date 17th Nov. Now this morning my neigbour phoned me to say that my Tenants loaded a lorry with all their stuff and have left the property empty. My neigbour took down the number of the removal van company, so will see if I can chase out a address etc However I phoned my Tenats later today and they answered the phone after a while. I asked them if they have left the property and they said no, but they did confirm they had some things removed that they didnt need. However my neighbour saw they had removed everyting! What can I do at this stage? I have posted a 48h notice to inspect the property today.

1. Can I just enter the property to make sure? Inspect? Safety concern? Or if they have stolen any of my fixtures?

2. Can Police help me?

3. Any advice would be much appreciated! I have lost a lot of money and even though I know the property is empty I can not do anything. Or can I?
I checked the property this lunch time and it was empty, I went to check from outside tonight and it looked empty (no lights, movements etc). Also neighbour called 10pm to confirm that Tenats have not returned and the propery is totally empty.

4. Also I do not know why the tenant are refusing to confirm that they have done a runner. PLEASE HELP ME!

[mali786]

I tried to contact tenant again today and they sent me a text to say: "I wanted to to talk to you to explain that you told to me to leave so I did".
I asked why didnt you tell me and leave the keys? They said they will post the keys to me. I again called with my mobile to confirm that they have left, which they did, and I recorded the conversation as evidence.

Now I guess I can access the propety? But what do I do with my hearing? I still want to get a money judgement. I want them to have a CCJ, so that it turns up on a credit check. Their credit check, when I did it was clean and good. If I don't get a CCJ on them, then they might cause trouble for more landlords in future. Is there a way we Landlords can have a database of problem tenants? To help each other?

[mind the gap]

I'm re-posting this query I received by pm from someone who is still waiting for her LLZ account to be activated. At first I advised caution and to obtain a curt order, etc, but she has since told me that she does in fact have it in writing from the tenants that they would leave by midnight on 31st October (even though they actually seem to have left today). I think it's ok in that case for OP to regain possession - does anyone disagree?

mtg

Hi
I have only just joined this forum and as yet cannot post a thread but am looking for a little advice. From your posts it sounds like you know about self managing a property so i hope you dont mind me messaging you like this.

this is my problem - i have a tenant who gave me notice to move out and the mutually agreed moving out date was yesterday 31st october therefore thAST agreement ended at 11.59 last night. they contacted me yesterday evening to say that they were having some problems in moving out by that time and could they have 'a few more days'. i said that they could have til 12.30 today at which point i would come to the property and collect the keys etc. however they are not there, and there are a few items that they have left and i have a new tenant expecting handover tomorrow morning at 9am. i have sent numerous text messages and tried called them numerous times but they are not getting back in touch.

my question is this, can i legally change the locks and remove their items to safe storage today if i contact them to tell them that i am doing so and give them the full details of where their items will be and my reasons for removal?"

many thanks for listening

Vicky

[westminster]

I'm re-posting this query I received by pm from someone who is still waiting for her LLZ account to be activated. At first I advised caution and to obtain a curt order, etc, but she has since told me that she does in fact have it in writing from the tenants that they would leave by midnight on 31st October (even though they actually seem to have left today). I think it's ok in that case for OP to regain possession - does anyone disagree?

mtg

I'm inclined to agree it's okay on the facts presented - T gave notice, then (subsequently?) stated "mutually agreed" departure date in writing. From LL's pov I'd feel on safer ground if the initial notice had also been given in writing.

It's perhaps a little worrying that they haven't responded to messages today, but maybe they're just avoiding LL because they fear they might get an earful for leaving some of their stuff behind (and perhaps they left the place in a bit of a mess). If it really is just a "few" belongings then it sounds as if they may have been so pressed for time they decided to abandon some stuff and get out of there before LL arrived.

(3...2...1...before Jeffrey jumps on the "curt order").

[islandgirl]

I would only caution that having received notice in writing (including a date of departure) when my tenants chose not to go, the advice I was given was that the written notice was "worth nothing". Just take care that they are not "professionals" just waiting for an excuse to sue you for illegal eviction...
having said that I would probably be tempted to enter but it would be much much better to have the keys back first....

[Paul_f]

Proceed with caution. I still would be disinclined to enter premises without keys being surrendered.

[mind the gap]

I would only caution that having received notice in writing (including a date of departure) when my tenants chose not to go, the advice I was given was that the written notice was "worth nothing". Just take care that they are not "professionals" just waiting for an excuse to sue you for illegal eviction...
having said that I would probably be tempted to enter but it would be much much better to have the keys back first....


I think this is a bit different, in that the tenants have not only agreeed in writing to go on a certain date after being served notice, but have also removed most of their stuff. I think that in the unlikely event of OP ever having to justify why she regained possession, she would have enough evidence to demonstrate that the tenancy had ended.

[islandgirl]

You are probably right MTG, it is different but the legal advice was clearly that it did not matter what they had written, the notice was worth nothing. However combined with an empty house it may be enough to avoid any other problems.

[s.hale123]

if i think a tenants done a runner can i legally enter the property.

all the curtains are closed.

can i drill out the locks

thanks

simon

[jeffrey]

No and no (respectively)!
Is the fixed term letting still running? If so, when will it expire?
Entering wrongfully might expose you to the dreaded 'professional tenant' syndrome: he/she suddenly returns, denies abandonment, and sues for £000s!

[s.hale123]

If the property is in constant darkness and i am unable to see in.
The tennant has been uncontactable for over 5 weeks now and neighbours state he has left.

what can i do? he does not reply to letters or phone calls

i can not let the property stay empty, he could have damaged the interiour or indeed left the gas on etc

i just dont know what to do

Simon

[Moderator1]

Several threads on the same subject have been merged here. Do not cause problems by starting continuation threads; use the same one.

[s.hale123]

This is all very new to me, and i messed up the first thread.

I have a tennant that appears to have dissapeared off the face of the planet. he is only 10 weeks into the first 6 months of his tennancy, and is miles behind on the rent.

At this stage i am not concerned about the money, i just have what appears to be empty house, no weay of contacting the tennant as he refuses to answer any correspondance phone, letter or otherwise.

The curtains are closed therefore no one can see in and establish if he is still there.

the place could have the gas and water left fully on and no one would know.

he has changed the front lock so i can not gain acces there and the key is in the rear door, the only way in is to drill out the locks.

what can i do? i need to establish if he's gone.

what sort of time scales are involved, as i can't just sit waiting for the house to fall over to find out no ones there.

please can someone help me, and give me some helpfull guidence.

simon

[theartfullodger]

s.hale...

It is entirely possible he's in hospital/prison/holiday... be careful....

Suggest you....
a) Read, learn & inwardly digest this lot...
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm
b) Ditto the rest of this thread...

What credit checks & referencing did you do?? Do you have emergency contacts for your tenant (personal, work) and do they know where he is??

Cheers!

Lodger

[b3nvw]

HI all, I paid a visit to my bungalow today to try and find out why rent was 3 weeks late and discovered that they have moved out, from just looking through windows i can see that all belongings and furniture have gone except 2 double beds and a load of crockery left on worktops. I have tried contacting them but as expected no reply. They have left some windows open, i am after someadvice on what to do next as the tennancy agreement is not up till end of april and they owe jan payment. Can i let myself in to check property and secure windows??

Many Thanks in advance for any info
Ben Taylor

[Ericthelobster]

Can i let myself in to check property and secure windows??http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm

[b3nvw]

Thanks for that. Lots of uesful information there.

Has anyone on here taken back possesion of there property after abondenment by tenants and then had tenants return once you have re-let? If so how did this turn out?
Thanks

[jeffrey]

Thanks for that. Lots of uesful information there.

Has anyone on here taken back possesion of there property after abondenment by tenants and then had tenants return once you have re-let? If so how did this turn out?
Thanks
The known cases usually involve a 'professional' T reappearing and either suing L or having L prosecuted.

[b3nvw]

Well on the bright side to this the tenant has been in touch with my agent via email confirming that they are ending the tenancy. So in a way they have helped us out in so much that i can go in and also get the deposit money paid immediately.

So in i went today and oh my god, what have they done to my house!!!! They have only been in 14 months and it doesnt look like a hoover has been used once. The state of the decor is terrible and i am fuming that they had the cheek to write in the email to agent that they had cleaned.

As they have left with 4 months still to run of tenancy what can i do to recover the 4 months rent i am going to loose out on? And also how do i go about getting the tenants blacklisted?

[jeffrey]

You can sue T (for unpaid rent and damage to premises); but there's no 'blacklist' on which to place T.

[Paragon]

Certainly tell the estate agents. The agents from all the local companies will generally know each other on a social basis. They do unofficially spread the word, at least in my area. I don't think they actually call it a "blacklist" however. Probably some sort of other euphemism.

[chris12]

my tenant has disappeared and the flat has been stripped of everything, including oven, hob, carpet & toilet seat. On top of the this every wall & ceiling has been splattered with cooking oil, which will be very difficult to just paint over. Two immediate problems are:

1. I have given him 2 months notice but don't know what is acceptable to serve notice. I have sent a notice to my flat but I've had to change locks for security - there was no forced entry - so the tenant does not have access. The email address he gave me (that I hadn't used before) has now come back saying it doesn't belong to my tenant & the tenant doesn't answer his mobile nos. although I have left verbal & text messages.

2. I've discovered that the limited company that was used to give me an employers reference for him went into liquidation 6 months before the tenancy started. Can I make a claim against my agent - who did use a reference agency - for lossees? What do I need to consider in doing that. Obviously I would not have let someone who was not employed into my flat.

Thanks,

Chris

[johnjw]

The law on theft applies to everyone, so I suggest you follow this up with the Police. Presumably you have an inventory or perhaps even photographs, relating to the stolen items.
The reference was clearly a forgery and if this was the only reference taken to check on the tenant, then the Agent and the reference agency were at fault. Are either in any trade association? If so, you could start process against them through the association. If not, you could consider a private prosecution based on professional negligence.
Good luck.

[chris12]

I have reported to police, have kept them informed at every stage, but am having difficulty in getting them to do much about it, even though I have the tenants car registation & the name of the 'removal' company that took the flat's contents.

The agents say there was good supporting evidence as there was a payslip (but obviously this was from a company already in liquidation) and a bank statement (which turned out to be a credit card statement) . I can see now that the previous landlord's reference was incomplete too.

[westminster]

See
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm

[Subway]

You could also try tracing via the car reg and DVLA route - I'd be interested to see if this works. See this thread http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=25452&highlight=dvla&page=2

[Kelstar]

My father in law has a tenant who pays weekly but hasn't paid for the last 3 weeks, they also have £70 arrears from a prior agreement that they have failed to keep to so all in all, they owe £400.

After the first week of not being paid any rent, they were left a polite note asking them to please bring it up to date the following week.

After the second week, a written warning was given to them.

And last week, another letter advising that the matter would be taken further i.e with court proceedings.

Now, the problem he has is that the only point of contact he's got is their mobile which has been switched off for a week or so.

Does he now have the right to change the locks on the house and enter their room to see what is actually going on? Also, they have left 2 cars behind, 1 of which has been there since they moved in and he's been told doesn't work and the other he has been advised by another tenant in the house that this one hasn't worked for a couple of weeks. What can he do about these aswell?

Where does he stand with regards to all of this.

Thanks.

[westminster]

You need to give more information before people can advise you:


Is the property in England/Wales?
Does the landlord live in the rental property?
Is the tenancy for a room, with shared communal areas, or for a whole self-contained flat or house?
Is the rent less than £2,083.33 per calendar month?
What date (day/month/year) does/did the fixed term of the tenancy agreement expire?
Did the tenant pay a deposit and did the landlord protect it?