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jinny
21-03-2006, 21:10 PM
The court papers came this morning, about the repo the LL is going for.
I have 14 days to claim my defence as it were, BUT, on the photocopy of the "pre sec 21" that i signed in July, it has a different date on it, the one i signed says 24th dec, the copy i have got today says 3rd March! they have got my address wrong on the papers, and their solictor states, that i have not replied to his letter! I did! via email the day i got his letter. I still have the voicemail from the girl in the office, they haven't responded to the housing officers letter, would any of this be classed a sdefence in my favour? even if the judge were to give me more time to move out i would be happy enough. Any thoughts? Thanks, jane.

Worldlife
22-03-2006, 05:10 AM
Jinny these seems to be a follow up to your previous thread http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1424

I agree with the advice given there that your signature is not necessary on a Section 21 Notice (unless the landlord wishes to rely on a dated signature as evidence of service but again that is not absolutely essential)

The key things for a Section 21 Notice are the date of the notice and the date that possession is required. Could you confirm the dates concerned.

Is there any clause on the notice that protects the landlord from giving the wrong dates? e.g. "If this notice will be otherwise invalid then etc etc"

Some S21 notices have what they define as prescribed information on them informing the tenant of their rights and the correct advice concerning possession procedures. Is there such information on your current notice?

In your previous thread is was not correct for the solicitors to threaten bailiffs if you did not comply with the S21 Notice and the matter went to Court. Bailiffs could only be instructed should you not comply with a Possession Order issued by the Court and that Order will set out the time by which you must vacate the property.

You could of course request the Court to consider setting back the date by which you must vacate the property but looking at the timescale here I suspect you would have to make a very strong case to support such a request. Maybe there are some guidance notes on this with the Court papers.

Presumably the Court documents were served at your correct address! Is the address given on the valid section 21 your correct address and was the notice served by post or delivered by hand? If the incorrect address was given have you entered into any correspondence or could evidence be provided from other witnesses that you had indeed received the notice (Maybe correspondence with the Local Authority etc)

justaboutsane
22-03-2006, 09:23 AM
Jane I woud love to say that the error in dates will help your case, but in my sisters experience it did not! The cheeky LL apply for the possession hearing BEFORE the Section 21 expired. My sister detailed this and more on her defence and they were given 14 days to move.

Detail everything you can and hope for the best... are you having any luck with the council??

good Luck

Energise
22-03-2006, 12:19 PM
The key things for a Section 21 Notice are the date of the notice and the date that possession is required. Could you confirm the dates concerned.


Not in this instance it would have been (or should have been) a S.21(1) notice.

Jinny, obviously I don't know why there is a discrepancy between your S.21 and the photo copy you have just received but It would seem that in order to prove there is a fault with S.21 copy just received you would have to show them a copy of your valid S.21.

pms
22-03-2006, 14:03 PM
The court papers came this morning, about the repo the LL is going for.
I have 14 days to claim my defence as it were, BUT, on the photocopy of the "pre sec 21" that i signed in July, it has a different date on it, the one i signed says 24th dec, the copy i have got today says 3rd March! they have got my address wrong on the papers, and their solictor states, that i have not replied to his letter! I did! via email the day i got his letter. I still have the voicemail from the girl in the office, they haven't responded to the housing officers letter, would any of this be classed a sdefence in my favour? even if the judge were to give me more time to move out i would be happy enough. Any thoughts? Thanks, jane.

This sounds a tricky one.Obviously from what you say the paperwork has a lot to be desired and the professionalism of the company must be brought into the equation.My only thought's here is that you could possibly make a defence regarding the paperwork as being defective.Unfortunatly as this site is pro-landlord the advice you will get will be one-sided and you will only hear it from one-side send me a private message and I will discuss your case with you as there is a solution to every problem.

PMS is now leaving the forum because it sucks!! but he will be watching you.

Worldlife
22-03-2006, 15:28 PM
Not in this instance it would have been (or should have been) a S.21(1) notice.

Jinny, obviously I don't know why there is a discrepancy between your S.21 and the photo copy you have just received but It would seem that in order to prove there is a fault with S.21 copy just received you would have to show them a copy of your valid S.21.

Am I under a misapprehension that the attached pro-forma notice if correctly completed cover both subsections. I've raised the issue concerning the Prescribed Information in another thread but the answer is still awaited.



ENGLAND & WALES
HOUSING ACT 1988 Section 21
Assured Shorthold Tenancy: Notice Requiring Possession

To:- Name & address of Tenant


From:- Name & address of Landlord

I give you notice that I require possession of the dwelling house known as

Address of property:-

After (insert date)

or (if this notice would otherwise be invalid) I require possession on the first date after:
• at least two months after service upon you of this notice, and
• (if your tenancy is for a fixed period) a date not earlier than the end of the
fixed period, or
• (if your tenancy is a periodic tenancy) the last date of a period of your
tenancy but no earlier than the date on which your tenancy could lawfully
be ended by a notice to quit

Name address & telephone number of agent if the form is signed by the Landlord's agent

Dated Signed

Landlord

PRESCRIBED INFORMATION
As set out in the Notices to Quit (Prescribed Information) Regulations 1988
1. If the tenant or licensee does not leave the dwelling the landlord or licensor must get an order for possession from the court before the tenant or licensee can be lawfully evicted. The landlord or licensor cannot apply for such an order before the notice to quit or notice to determine has run out (i.e. before the expiry date).
2. A tenant or licensee who does not know if he has any right to remain in possession after a notice to quit or a notice to determine runs out can obtain advice from a solicitor. Help with all or part of the cost of legal advice may be available under the Legal Aid Scheme. He should also be able to obtain information from a Citizens Advice Bureau, a Housing Aid
centre or a Rent Officer.

Worldlife
23-03-2006, 07:17 AM
See new thread The Notices to Quit etc (Prescribed Information) Regulations 1988 (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=13517#post13517)

Firstly I would stress that the extracts from the Lawpack S21 Notice I have included above are intended for discussion purposes only. There is no intended intrusion of copyright and the guidance notes forming as essential part of the form are missing.

The 26 page manual Lawpack provide with their Residential Letting kit contains superb and detailed advice summarising much of the good advice provided on these forums. Details are given on correct completion of their Section 21 form and the reasons why the form is set out as it is.

Thanks to Energise for sending me authorative information concerning S21. The area is a minefield!!!

Thanks to the Lawpack form and guidance I correctly served a section 21(1) notice because the original fixed term had continued as a statutory periodic tenancy. I also complied with section 21(4) by inserting the last day of the period of the tenancy[ it was the end of a six month period]

IMHO this pro-forma notice can, if correctly completed, be used successfully to cover the various subclauses of S21. Does anyone disagree?

For the relatively small expense (tax deductable!) I intend continued use these pro-forma notices - they are much more reliable than suggested draft notices in books that could have inadequate or outdated information.

pms
23-03-2006, 15:04 PM
There is one thing missing from the S21 NOTICE which would make it invalid.

http://www.kalico.plus.com/ycrla/ycrla_section21.htm

I know it is only one word but that makes the difference.

Worldlife
23-03-2006, 17:21 PM
@ pms

What is the missing word you state is detailed in the text of your link?

I'll then compare with the original pro-forma notice from Lawpack and the full notes see if it is an issue they have considered.

pms
23-03-2006, 21:09 PM
@ pms

What is the missing word you state is detailed in the text of your link?

I'll then compare with the original pro-forma notice from Lawpack and the full notes see if it is an issue they have considered.

Worldlife: the word/s is by virtue of S21.Read the link again that is why it was invalid.

Worldlife
24-03-2006, 05:26 AM
From your link pms:-


Without including anywhere on the notice that the notice was related to section 21 of the Act, the notice was considered defective and the landlord would have to serve another valid notice and start over again.<snip>

It is interesting to note the section 21(1) for fixed term tenancies does not make the same requirement, however, caution would say that including reference to section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 on the fixed term notice would be wise.

Look carefully at the heading of the Lawpack notice pms!!!!!

It's in a large bold font on the original notice ......


ENGLAND & WALES
HOUSING ACT 1988 Section 21
Assured Shorthold Tenancy: Notice Requiring Possession

If I recall correctly this case revolved around the failure of the landlord to include any mention of Section 21.

The Lawpack notice states quite clearly:-


or (if this notice would otherwise be invalid) I require possession on the first date after: and then sets out the requirements relating to a Section 21 notice.

I'm not sure whether the note
The last two lines of Section21(4)a is the part of interest as it requires the notice served to state that "possession is required by virtue of this section" of the act. forms part of the judgement or is merely a comment from the Letting Centre.

It does not say "this subsection" of the Act !!!

Although linking to source material is useful it is certainly more helpful (particularly in long articles) to copy and paste, as quotes, the salient points that you see as supporting the point you wish to make

pms
24-03-2006, 13:28 PM
From your link pms:-



Look carefully at the heading of the Lawpack notice pms!!!!!

It's in a large bold font on the original notice ......



If I recall correctly this case revolved around the failure of the landlord to include any mention of Section 21.

The Lawpack notice states quite clearly:-

and then sets out the requirements relating to a Section 21 notice.

I'm not sure whether the note forms part of the judgement or is merely a comment from the Letting Centre.

It does not say "this subsection" of the Act !!!

Although linking to source material is useful it is certainly more helpful (particularly in long articles) to copy and paste, as quotes, the salient points that you see as supporting the point you wish to make

Worldlife: The point that im making is that the notice could still be defective in the wording that is used,as the subsection is missing.Although it relates to S21 the arguement could be what part of S21!!!