Ground Rent demands- s.166 of 2002 Act- Shenstone

[frankie3520]

Hi all,

The company who i pay my ground rent to forgot to send me a bill last year and to be honest, i never noticed (probably due to the fact that i had a baby last year and had more pressing matters!). For whatever reasons, they never chased it.
I received a bill off them a few weeks ago for two years worth of rent. I sent them a cheque straight away. I have just received a letter off them saying that the payment was received outside the time scale and that they had sent me a warning letter (i never received it). They say they started action to recover the debt and costs have been occured. The costs are not a huge amount, but thats not really the point to me.
They say at the bottom of the letter "For your information, our administration and recovery costs are allowed for in Section 146 (3&5) of thr Law or Property Act".
I have tried to do a bit of research into this, but to no avail. Is this correct? I have not received any kind of letters from their Solicitors or debt companies etc. It appears it has simply been passed to the debt recovery team of the same company. Is this enough for them to chanrge me admin costs?
I am keen to ring them on Monday and play merry hell as i have never received any other letter from them and it appears it has taken them over a year to realise i had not paid last years rent! But i would like to be able to at the very least sound like i know what im talking about.
Any help would be greatfully received. If im in the wrong, please do tell me and i'll bite the bullet and pay it.

[Gordon999]

CPM ( previously part of Erinaceous ) used to play this trick of using a debt collector for unpaid service charges.

Simarc is another company that failed send out ground rent demands and then later will slap a huge fee for recovery charges.

Whats the name of your managing agent and freeholder company ?

[frankie3520]

Shenstone Properties

[jeffrey]

Shenstone Properties
Unless the ground rent demand folowed the format specified in s.166 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002, and all dates in it (and its date of service) complied with that sectiont, the demand is VOID.

[frankie3520]

Many thanks Jeffrey. Is there a particular part i should be looking at or is it generally the whole thing? Im currently looking at this page:

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=commonhold+and+leasehold+reform+act&Year=2002&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&TYPE=QS&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=537521&PageNumber=1&SortAlpha=0

[jeffrey]

Besides s.166 itself, there's also a prescribed form of Notice: see SI 2004, no. 3096: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&Year=2004&number=3096&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&TYPE=QS&NavFrom=0&activeTextDocId=996305&PageNumber=1&SortAlpha=0

[frankie3520]

Ok, i have checked and it appears they have complied so far as the correct info on the form is concerned. The only thing i have noticed is that they have quoted "Landlord and Tennant Act 1987". Not sure if this is the right date because everything im looking at from your attachments is from the 2004 act.

[Gordon999]

The prescribed Notice under the Commonhold & Leasehold Reform Act 2002 commence in Feb 2005 , so what kind of demands did you get for 2005 and 2006 and 2007 ?

This Notice starting from Feb 2005 was introduced to stop dishonest managing agents claiming extortionate recovery charges for deliberately creating rent arrears situations by not sending out demands

Have you always used the same address for receiving ground rent demands in 2005-2007 ? If so I think you could confirm the ground rent for last year was never posted to you.

[frankie3520]

i can see your point gordon, but they arent charging me the admin charge for last years rent being late. They are saying that the cheque i sent them covering the last two years rent was received out of date (ie, more than 28 days after they billed me this year).

Either they are lying and have been holding onto my cheque on purpose, or the cheque was lost in the post for some time and reached them after the 28 day limit. Either way, they have added on an admin charge saying that because the chq was received late, they have had to commence action to recover the costs. I cannot see what they have done, other than pass it to a female who deals with debts (who works for the same company) and she has sent out 1 further letter, which i have never received. There is no way i can ever prove they never sent that letter out. I suspect they will either say that i am lying and did actually receive it, or it was lost in the post (!).

I think my only argument can be is to ask how on earth they can justify the admin charges for one letter, because it appears they have not got solicitors involved in any way.

[frankie3520]

After a blazing row with the company this morning, they wont budge.
Is it right that they dont actually have to send any reminders for rent out? That it is our responsibility to pay the rent even without a letter saying it is due and how much it is?
I am so livid at the way this woman has just spoken to me - right from the moment she picked up the phone she was abusive, sarcastic and downright rude!

[jeffrey]

Re-read s.166 (and it's the 2002 Act, not any 2004 Act nor the 1987 Act, that's relevant). No, you need not pay any ground rent at all unless and until a demand in accordance with s.166 is sent to you.

[sammy cook]

and demands seven years worth of ground rent. However there are repairs required to the exterior of the house which is common to several flats (gutter/drainpipe etc). Am I right to withhold payment until the repairs are carried out. Cheers

[jeffrey]

Maximum arrears claim (if suing) is six years: see Limitation Act 1980.

[Gordon999]

and demands seven years worth of ground rent. However there are repairs required to the exterior of the house which is common to several flats (gutter/drainpipe etc). Am I right to withhold payment until the repairs are carried out. Cheers

Ground rent is due and payable for BEING a leaseholder. Non-payment exposes you to forfeiture and often the mortgage lender would prefer to pay and charge everything to your account. Don't withhold ground rent.

Repairs to building is a separate issue and comes under service charge administration and depends on what your lease wording says. Service charge demand is a matter you can refuse to pay and raise the problem before the LVT.

[andydd]

Ground rent is due and payable for BEING a leaseholder. Non-payment exposes you to forfeiture and often the mortgage lender would prefer to pay and charge everything to your account. Don't withhold ground rent.

Repairs to building is a separate issue and comes under service charge administration and depends on what your lease wording says. Service charge demand is a matter you can refuse to pay and raise the problem before the LVT.

I believe I'm correct in adding that forfeiture cant be considered unless the amount owing is more than £350 or is more than 3 years in arrears.

I agree with 'dont withhold it', unlike service charges it cant be questioned or challanged, although personally I find myself in the position of being overcharged ground rent for 14 years !

Andy

[jeffrey]

Yes. The restrictions on forfeiture are in s.167 of 2002 Act.

[Gordon999]

After a blazing row with the company this morning, they wont budge.
Is it right that they dont actually have to send any reminders for rent out? That it is our responsibility to pay the rent even without a letter saying it is due and how much it is?
I am so livid at the way this woman has just spoken to me - right from the moment she picked up the phone she was abusive, sarcastic and downright rude!

Frankie,

The "Notice to Long Leaseholders of Rent Due " under the 2002 Act started on 28/2/2005. So all ground rent due has to be served by a Notice and the woman is not right.

[Richard Webster]

A tip when dealing with some of these people is to send things tracked mail so you can prove they had your letter.

[jeffrey]

Frankie,

The "Notice to Long Leaseholders of Rent Due " under the 2002 Act started on 28/2/2005. So all ground rent due has to be served by a Notice and the woman is not right.
Yes. See my post#11, saying so.

[frankie3520]

i have receiveed a letter ackowledging receipt of my chqeue but nothing about the complaint i made. Are these comapnies regulated by anyone? I dont think this company is an estate agent.

[Gordon999]

The "conduct of a company" is regulated by Companies Investigation Branch,21 Bloomsbury St, London WC1B 3XD.

The breach of the law may come under the Fraud Act 2006 clause 2.1 and clause 10.

Does any wording in your lease state " interest may be charged for arrears of ground rent at bank rate + 5% " ?

[cbrunniche]

I sympathise with you Frankie, I didnt receive my ground rent notice as my tenant didnt forward it to me, or they didnt bother sending one out, so the next year I got slapped with loads of charges for arrears. The woman I spoke to to challenge the costs was downright nasty, and threatened to take me to court. They had alrwady approacged my mortgage company without my knowledge.

[Gordon999]

frankie,

Was your cheque presented to the bank for payment ?

[baggy]

Hi Frankie,

Yesterday morning I received a letter from Shenstone Properties saying that they are charging me £105.00 (Admin and recovery costs £70.00) because I hadn’t sent them there cheque for £35.00. The said cheque was posted over 3 weeks ago and they are saying they have never received it and as a result the charges were enforced. I to had to deal with a lady who was arrogant sarcastic and damn right rude. I tried to explain that the cheque was posted and in light of all the recent postal strikes the cheque will still be looming in our terrible postal system. Unfortunately for me it all fell on deaf ears and the charges still stand. This really annoyed me but I kept calm and asked the question why can’t you set up a system where a debit card or direct debit payment could be made in future? Her answer to this question was `That’s how we do business here` To me its damn right daylight robbery ! how do I know that the cheque has simply not been put in the bin?? How do I know that they don’t keep so many cheques to one side and then hand out these unjustifiable charges with the threat of court action if not paid. I mean the lady said and I quote ` I’ve had 20 or more calls this morning all saying the same thing, people saying they have posted their cheques when its oblivious they haven’t ` I don’t know what I’m going to do with this, I’m considering going to court and arguing my case. How did you get on with them and is it worth all the agro or should I just bite the bullet and pay the thing ;-(

Regards

Carl.

[jeffrey]

Do not panic.
Did S send you a formal ground rent demand containing all bits and bobs demanded by s.166 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002?
If not, S cannot demand any rent at all- and no nonpayment consequences arise either- unless and until it complies. You might usefully tell it so!

[Gordon999]

This may help you in Court - shenstone identified as a ground rent grazer in Parliament on 10 Jun 1998-

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980610/debtext/80610-04.htm

[andydd]

This may help you in Court - shenstone identified as a ground rent grazer in Parliament on 10 Jun 1998-

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980610/debtext/80610-04.htm

Isn't this the very reason why S166 was introduced. Although it would be interesting to see what proof a landlord would have to show that a valid demand was actually sent ?


Andy

[Achilles]

Would it not be a good idea to first read your lease to see what you signed up a commitment for rather than having 'blazing rows'?

In many leases it the lessee's responsibility to pay and not the lessor's responsibility to get involved in unnecessary paperwork for a small sum.

Why not simply set up a standing order with your bank to pay the due amount on the due date that you had signed up for? Or would you prefer to continue to be a Mr AngryPerson and demand "your rights"?

Life is too short!

[jeffrey]

Yes, a standing order is easiest. BUT any lessee is entitled to demand that the lessor comply with s.166- hardly a question of a blazing row!

[P_G]

Hi

We received a ground rent letter from Shenstone at the end of August. A cheque was sent out for the £35 amount in early September.

On 19th November we received a further letter with £70 admin and recovery costs added. We rang them up last week and explained a cheque had been sent. It was left that we would check with the bank and call back.

The cheque was indeed never banked, but on our return phone call they are saying it is not their fault the cheque never arrived and that the admin charges stand and they will take us to court.

I have cancelled the original cheque and sent one out recorded today for the ground rent only of £35.

Can anyone offer any advice on whether they will accept this, or whether further problems may arise? The original cheque was definitely posted three months ago, although I have no proof of this.

Many thanks
P_G

[andrew12345]

Hi, my parents are having a similar problems (researching because I know my way around the internet a bit better)

Again with Shenstone Properties and by the sounds of it everyone is speaking to the same lady (can someone let me know if its ok to name her?).

Our problem is slightly different, a couple of years ago we moved from the UK to a different country at the time because we where moving a letter was sent to Shenstone requesting that any further letters be sent to our new address now looking at the link posted here I see that the new address is to be in England or Wales, which it wasnt but shouldnt they have made some kind of comment when we sent them the letter requesting to send any further letters to our new address rather than just ignoring it? (It was in the letter with another question which they answered) Now we are finding like a lot of you for a tiny payment (2.50GBP every 6months) which has been a 5GBP payment a year till now has the added cost of 70GBP and we only found out through the bank contacting us.

The 5GBP was sent out as soon as we found out but they are just saying they are holding the cheque because its not enough.

Apparently as well some of the questions asked over the phone are either ignored or just told "thats how we do things"

Does anyone know where we would stand? do we just have to pay the 75GBP due to not going through the entire law to see where the address has to be? We have since set up that our property manager is happy enough to receive the letters and make the payment on our behalf so it shouldn't be an on going thing.

Thanks in Advance

[jeffrey]

It's not you (the lessee) whose service address must by law be in E&W; but the lessor.

[Gordon999]

See my post #25 . Shenstone was identified in Parliament in 1998 as one of a number of "ground rent rent grazers" which are companies that try to collect inflated recovery costs by deliberately putting you in arrears ( such as not banking your cheque).

You need to complain to your MP with Shenstone's demand + a copy of the page from the 1998 speech and ask him/her to complain to Housing Minister, OFT and the police ( for fraud ) and register the complaint so that it can be added to other similar complaints.

[andrew12345]

Just to quote from the link you first posted it says under S166 "(6)If the notice is sent by post, it must be addressed to a tenant at the dwelling unless he has notified the landlord in writing of a different address in England and Wales at which he wishes to be given notices under this section (in which case it must be addressed to him there)." Isnt this saying it must be my address thats in England and Wales? It would be great if it wasnt but its how I read it.

Will look into what Gordon posted about complaining since just paying and not making any noise about it seems the worst thing to do in terms of stopping it.

[jeffrey]

Just to quote from the link you first posted it says under S166 "(6)If the notice is sent by post, it must be addressed to a tenant at the dwelling unless he has notified the landlord in writing of a different address in England and Wales at which he wishes to be given notices under this section (in which case it must be addressed to him there)." Isnt this saying it must be my address thats in England and Wales? It would be great if it wasnt but its how I read it.
Yes. With hindsight, I agree that you're right. Please disregard my incorrect post #32.

[woodkit]

Also FAO Achilles

Would it not be a good idea to first read your lease to see what you signed up a commitment for rather than having 'blazing rows'?

In many leases it the lessee's responsibility to pay and not the lessor's responsibility to get involved in unnecessary paperwork for a small sum.

Why not simply set up a standing order with your bank to pay the due amount on the due date that you had signed up for? Or would you prefer to continue to be a Mr AngryPerson and demand "your rights"?

Life is too short!

Yes, it would be a great idea for me to set up a standing order, direct debit, online payment or paypal etc. with Shenstone except for the fact that the only 2 payment methods they accept are Ye Olde Cheque or Postal Order.
Which, if you don`t have the foresight to send recorded delivery, are the easiest types of payment to get "lost" in the system In short Shenstone are using it to their advantage to make it difficult for you to pay them and at no time in their correspondence do they suggest you send recorded delivery.

[woodkit]

FAO Frankie3520, baggy, P G and Andrew12345 -

Wondering if you got anywhere with Shenstone?
I have exactly the same problem - I sent a cheque for £11.28 in November and thought nothing of it till I received a demand for an extra £70.00 for non payment.
Like you I rang up and complained then wrote a letter and sent them another cheque for £11.28 by recorded delivery. They returned this cheque and disregarded the letter I sent saying I had to pay or would go to court. I am willing to go to court and dispute the "non payment" allegation because of the principle of the matter. When I spoke to Nationwide they told me that they have had a large number of people saying exactly the same as me who are in dispute with....
Yes you guessed it Shenstone Properties!

Your situation appears to be ahead of mine so just wondered if there had been an outcome yet?

[andrew12345]

Will update here what happens once I have more information. Keep an eye on here.

[andrew12345]

Ok our issue still isnt resolved I will just go through a bit of what has been sent.

On 19th Jan we faxed a letter stating that, after a letter we received on 6th Jan (Which stated they would hold our 5GBP cheque until the account was settled in full because of Admin & Recovery Costs) and a phone call we are disputing the admin/recovery costs because they claimed in the phone call that we had to pay even if they didnt send a letter and quoting S166 that says they do, also that under the same act (schedule 11) they must send a summary of rights and obligations if any demand for administration chrages and they didnt.

We also mensioned that over a year ago when we told them our new address (which they definitely received) in a letter they didnt acknowledge it at all nor did they tell us it had to be specifically an address in England or Wales. With it we now supplied a new address in England.

Their Response

We refer to your telephone call made to our office on 13 Jan whereby you agreed to forward payment in settlement of the above outstanding account (Which we didnt agree to in the telephone call) and note that to date this is still outstanding.

We look forward to receiving the balance of the account in due course.

So pretty much they ignore what they dont want to answer, now the ball is in our court and the question is what to do with it?

[jeffrey]

If you have already complies with what the lease prescribes, disregard the lessor's further requirements and just sit tight.

[dominic]

We really need a panorama or dispatches programme exposing this sort of thing.

[jeffrey]

There have already been these programmes (and Parliamentary debates). The groundswell of public opinion led to the s.164-s.171 procedures.

[frankie3520]

Hi, im afraid i didnt as they still wont answer my complaint. I put it in almost a year ago and have got in contact a number of times to ask when i can expect a reply and they wont answer me. They dont have a clue about running a company! I have had a number of private messages from people on here but unfortunately i cant send PM's back as the system wont allow me.
So the answer is, no i havent got anywhere so far.

[atomic]

I thought I would just add my story to this post after searching the net for info on Shenstone Properties Lichfield.

I moved into a leasehold house towards the end of 2008 in Derbyshire, with Shenstone Properties owning the freehold.

I didn't get a demand for the ground rent but mid 2009 got a nasty letter asking for payment of the ground rent + £70 in charges. They said they had sent several demands which had gone unanswered and that they had not been informed that the owners had moved.

I confirmed with my solicitors that all the correct paperwork had been done and that Shenstone should have been aware that we had moved in and after a number of letters and getting the solicitor involved they banked the cheque for the ground rent (I didn't pay the charges).

Early March I received this year's rent demand - still addressed to the former owner, so I sent them the cheque for the ground rent with a covering letter asking them to update the name (which they should have known after last year's debacle) including a self addressed envelope.

A week later my cheque came back with a letter asking for £70 admin to change the name. So I phoned them up and explained that they should already know my name after I had to get the solicitors involved last year and they said they would update their records and that I should send the cheque again.

It's now 3 weeks later and the cheque still hasn't been cashed so I'm guessing they will pretend it has been lost in the post as soon as the due date has passed. I'm thinking about trying to phone them to see if they will confirm receiving it.

I am regretting not posting it recorded delivery and would advise anyone else dealing with them to do so.

I find it very frustrating that I have to continue wasting so much of my time over a £20 ground rent payment.

[jeffrey]

Atomic: did Shenstone demand rent in a format complying with s.166 of the 2002 Act? If not, its demand is invalid.
See post #39 on http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=203363#post203363

[atomic]

Yes, the demand appeared to be in the correct format the only issue being that the name on it was wrong, however I will double check it against the information on post #39 in case there are any anomalies.

[atomic]

UPDATE: Looked at online banking and the cheque has come out today. So hopefully no more problems with them for another year. Sorry to double post but could not seem to find a way to edit my previous post.

[atomic]

I was hasty thinking my headache was over as I found the following letter when I just arrived home.

So basically they deceived me on the telephone when they said that I should resend the cheque for £20 for the ground rent? I never agreed to any charges or paying by installments.


"RE: OUTSTANDING GROUND RENT AND COSTS PAYABLE ON [property name removed]

We acknowledge receipt of your cheque and confirm this has been credited to your account as your first monthly payment. We look forward to receiving the next insalment by 07 May 2010 and monthly thereafter.

If you are experiencing difficulties in sending payments, please contact us as a matter of urgency

Please be advised that Shenstone Properties Limited only accept payment by Cheque or Postal Order. No other method of payment is available.

Your sincerely

S.Wagstaff
Mr S Wagstaff
Manager - Debt Recovery"

[jeffrey]

Eh? Every ground rent is always payable by instalments (yearly, half-yearly, or quarterly).

[atomic]

My point is that the annual ground rent is £20, paid upto date and they have cashed the cheque for that, so why would I need to send them monthly installments for anything in May this year.

Surely the next thing I should receive is my ground rent demand next year, not this crazy letter.

[andydd]

My point is that the annual ground rent is £20, paid upto date and they have cashed the cheque for that, so why would I need to send them monthly installments for anything in May this year.

Surely the next thing I should receive is my ground rent demand next year, not this crazy letter.

They havn't got confused with service charges have they ?

Andy

[moody]

I've just had a letter from this Shenstone Properties company as well.

This has confused me no end so any owrds of advice would be appreciated.

I bought the flat 2 years ago and was informed that there was a peppercorn ground rent of £5 p/a, but this had never been collected since the property was converted to flats in 1983. The landlord had been declared 'absentee' as a result. As such my solicitors took out an absentee landlord indemnity policy just in case.

Since buying the property I have heard nothing more about it. Until this letter, which states:

"We write to you regarding an outstanding debt on the property that you currently reside in and would in the first isstance request that you contact us upon receipt of this letter as a matter of urgency as there is a debt on the above property for which we have received a county court judgement.

Our next course of action is to continue through the courts to the extent that forfeiture will be gained regarding this property and ultimately the ownership of the property could be returned to us.

To you, this will result in you having to find alternative accommodation.

Etc etc."

Now, as far as I am aware there has been no forfeiture as there has been no request... Looking at the land registry the original house was once party to a freehold/leasehold agreement back in 1911 with different people/companies but the current flat is party to this peppercorn agreement with a named man who obviously converted the property.

I am going to call them in the morning but have been trying to dig around a little. It is only on finding this thread that I have put 2 and 2 together and assumed that this is to do with ground rent...the letter gives nothing away! If they are not forthcoming/helpful I'm tempted to refer them directly to my solicitor who has the insurance paperwork etc I think.

Can anyone shed any more light on this or point me in a better direction? Thanks!

[adambucky]

SHOCK HORROR. We sent a cheque 2 weeks before it was due to shenstone properties for 35 (pound sign button does not work). They sent me a letter back with the cheque 4 weeks later (yesterday) saying it was recieved outside the timescale and fined me 70. I am livid, but a quick google search and lots of people are having the same problem. I am going to let them take me court

[Gordon999]

Try reporting your problem to:

1. Companies Investigation Branch , 21 Bloomsbury St, London WC1B 3XD

2. National Fraud Authority, PO Box 64170 London WC1A 9BP.

3. Your local MP

[jeffrey]

The best answer to the Shenstones and E&Ms of this world is to rely only on what the lease states in black and white. If the fee for Notice of Transfer is 'Ten Shillings and Six Pence' [= 53p], as it often is in Sheffield, pay no more than that and tell them to **** *** for the rest.

[adambucky]

Rang them up this morning, went mad at the woman and demanded to speak to the manager (mrs wagstaff) but she wouldnt speak to me, told them i will ring every 30 mins on friday until she speaks to me. Over my dead body will i pay that fine when i have done nothing wrong.

[woodkit]

Adambucky - I am in the same boat as you except they never sent my first cheque back, just said that they never received it.
i would like to speak / email you about this as I am willing to go to court over this. They are very sneaky as to how you can pay them ie postal order and cheque, both untraceable unless you send registered post, which you would not expect to do for amounts less than £10.00

keep us updated as to how you get on - when we have 15 posts each we can message each other!

[adambucky]

Hi mate, spoke to mrs wagstaff, She just didnt care, it ended up i have asked her to take me to court. I will gather all evidence on these talk forums and take them all with me. I have been advised to resend my cheque which i have.

She explained to me that i didnt send a cheque 6 months ago for 17.50 (i did). She asked why i didnt cheque my bank statements. I also pointed out to her to look on these forums at the problems people have with the company, but again she wasnt bothered.

I need evidence off other people of the problems they have had once my court summons comes through the post.

I will open an email account for this subject and post it on here soon.

I like to think of myself as a decent guy, however i will not be taken for a ride

[woodkit]

Ok adam
Sounds like I am in the same boat as you. After they "denied" receiving the first cheque, I was charged £70 extra for "admin" costs! I have sent them numerous cheques for the original amount of "11.70 which they keep returning to me.
If they are supposedly taking me to court to recover the admin costs then why are thay not accepting the cheques for the ground rent alone?

[hansretallick]

I too have had a problem with Shenstone. I have bought a couple of properties with 999 year leases with tiny amounts of rent (less than £5 pa). After my solicitor failed to trace the freeholder, I managed to find that it was Shenstone. A phone call confirmed that I needed to pay rent to them, and that they would send me a rent demand. Imagine my surprise when the demands arrived, each with a £70 'administration charge' added to the rent due. We sent them a cheque for the rent only, and it was returned to us as unacceptable because we hadn't paid in full. I object to paying a £70 administration charge for sending out an invoice effectively. I am unable to charge my tenants for the cost of collecting their rent (and wouldn't dream of doing so) so why should I pay these exhorbitant charges? I would be happy to pay a small charge, but £70 per freehold is in my opinion totally unreasonable. If Shenstone refuse to accept my rent cheques, has anyone any idea how I stand?

[jeffrey]

After my solicitor failed to trace the freeholder
Oh, yes, why was that?

[Rossy48]

I just got my first letter from Shenstone today, which has left me a little confused, and after reading this post I think that I am going to have fun and games in sorting this out.

They are asking for £11.25 outstanding Chief Rent, and £70 registration & admin costs.

They have stated demands for rent were sent to the property, and that they only found my name by doing a land registry search, therefore discovering that i bought this property in Dec 2007.

They are also stating that as my solicitor did not serve a Notice of assignment and charge upon them, that i am now responsible for any arrears by the previous owner.

I have checked my title, which has the first line of "(05.06.1979) The Freehold Land ......", and not "The Leasehold Land......", however there is a perpetual annual rent charge of £4 that goes back to a covenant in 1934.

The covenant states that the rent charge was payable to a named individual and not Shenstone Properties ltd, who are not named anywhere in the title.

How can I find out if this charge is still valid, and that it is payable to Shenstone, and not some other party??

[jeffrey]

A rentcharge is wholly different from a ground rent. the law is radically different, too.
Your first post is surely wrong, in describing your property as leasehold.
What information did V's solicitors provide to yours, before exchange of contracts?

[Rossy48]

My property is Freehold, for a rentcharge to be chargeable and valid i thought it would have to be leasehold.
I have asked my solicitor exactly that question today, and they are looking into it.
i have written to shenstone asking them to provide eveidence that they are the current owners of the rent charge.
will update when i know something new

[Gordon999]

Perhaps you can end the rent charge ? - according to this article:

http://es.homesandproperty.co.uk/property_news/legal_q_and_as/rentchargeforproperties.html

[jeffrey]

Perhaps you can end the rent charge ? - according to this article:

http://es.homesandproperty.co.uk/property_news/legal_q_and_as/rentchargeforproperties.html
ONLY if it's a freehold house with no joint facilities
(as, for a flat [or for a house with joint facilities], an Estate Rentcharge might be used to ensure covenant enforceability).

[BevB]

Hi,
We are having similar problems with Shenstone properties ...
We sent a cheque for £18.00 to Shenstone in April, we then received two letters demanding payment of ground rent plus admin & recovery costs of £70.00. On speaking to Shenstone they denied all knowledge of my original cheque. I then sent another cheque for £18.00 (recorded delivery) and stopped my original cheque, as it appeared it had been' lost in the post'. On Saturday Shenstone returned my original cheque (yes, the one they said they hadn't received!) along with a letter saying that in my phone call to them I'd said I would send a cheque for the full amount of £88.00 (I didn't say this).
I spoke to them again today - they told me I still owe £88.00 and they're returning my second cheque for £18.00.
What do we do from here - we have been given 14 days to pay the £88.00? Do we pay this and hope to claim back the admin fee or do we sit tight?
Thanks for any advice.

[jeffrey]

Do NOT pay the unwarranted demand. The company relies on leaseholders' craven submissiveness.

[BevB]

I had my 2nd cheque for £18 returned to me today - it seems like Shenstone want £88 or nothing! They have also kindly informed my building society that we owe £88, although BS have said they aren't taking any action. I've sent a 3rd cheque today (for £18) along with a letter explaining why I believe this is the amount I owe. Fingers-crossed they'll accept it this time....

adambucky - have you managed to get anywhere with Shenstone?

[woodkit]

You appear to be in the same boat as me Bevb
Are you still online?

[woodkit]

I ave had at least 4 cheques returned by Shenstone as they are expecting the £70.00 admin charge to be paid. On 23rd March they told me that I had 14 days to pay otherwise Forfeiture proceedings would commenc.
Tick Tock, Tick Tock!

[BevB]

Just had my 3rd cheque returned...it seems like this is common practice for Shenstone! Good to hear that others are having the same trouble (well it's not good but you know what I mean!). I'm gonna try sending my cheque again....any advice on how I can persuade them to drop the admin charges or what steps I should take next?

Keep posting - it's good to know we're not on our own. Has anyone managed to get Shenstone to drop admin charges yet?

[atomic]

I am also still having problems with Shenstone. Please see my previous posts.

My problem is for the 2nd year running almost identical to what happened in March 2009, when they said I owed £20 Ground Rent and £70 Admin/Recovery. My solicitor forwarded them a copy of the Notice of Transfer and they accepted the Ground Rent payment and I was advised by my solictor to pay no more than £1.28 for their costs which I did.

Fast forward to March 2010 and they have somehow forgotten my name again and I am not the "registered leaseholder". The ground rent demand arrived with the name of the former occupant.

My solictors have confirmed sending them the Notice of Transfer (again) in March 2009 after which I didn't hear anything until this year.

However they now claim they never received it.

Clearly from the amount of mail they lose, they should be having serious words with Royal Mail.

They are also trying to say that I owe the ground rent when they have cashed the cheque for £20 which was paid in good faith and on time attached to a letter clearly stating it was payment for ground rent. I don't see how they can use the £20 towards the charges they have fabricated and claim the ground rent as unpaid.

Latest letter says they are going to court in 14 days if I dont pay:

£20 ground rent outstanding
£10 notice of assignment
£30 notice of charge
£8 cost official copy entry
£2 cost of all correspondence regarding above

I have sent an email to Watchdog about this company and suggest everyone else do the same.

Maybe we should start a facebook campaign or a group somehow?

I don't plan to send them the money and will be forwarding their letter to my solicitor.

How is everyone else getting on?

[BevB]

Well it looks like Shenstone are going to spending a lot of time in court! We'd thought about contacting Watchdog...I'll try to get in touch with them this week. I was also thinking of getting some advice from the Leasehold Advisory Service - anybody had any dealings with them?

[adambucky]

Hi i am back.

Shenstone have done the usual, contacted my bank and sent me letters demanding money.



I keep sending the original cheque back.

[andydd]

Well it looks like Shenstone are going to spending a lot of time in court! We'd thought about contacting Watchdog...I'll try to get in touch with them this week. I was also thinking of getting some advice from the Leasehold Advisory Service - anybody had any dealings with them?

The LAS are very helpfull, you can see them face to face in your'e in london but there is a long wait for an appoinment, but you can get phone/email advice quite quick, they are helpful on basic information but as for more complex queries they can only give you their interpretation of the situation and the law, unfortunately (as I've found out), courts and especially LVT's may reach a contradictionary conclusion.

Andy

[JuliaCoulton]

At least it appears I'm not alone. Have lived here for 4 years and out of the blue the other week a letter from Shenstone demanding £82, £12 of which is outstanding rent the rest admin, the breakdown of which is detailed in a previous post (Notice of Charge, Notice of Assignment etc).

They've also contacted our mortgage company, referred to it as a ground rent and now our mortgage company have written to us as if we're leaseholders and are are in leasehold rent arrears which has implications for our mortgage which is complete nonsense. I've put them straight on that and stopped them from paying the chief rent which they had written to say they would do at a cost to us of a further £75. What is going on!!

Have written again to Shenstone, having spoken to our solicitor, to advise them that there is nothing in the deeds to permit them to make these charges, awaiting reply.

A case for watchdog , I agree

[atomic]

Just a quick note to say that my case is still not resolved.

Received a letter from my bank today to say that Shenstone have now written to them to try and obtain the disputed £70. I have asked the bank not to pay without my authority.

I have contacted the Leaseholder Advisory service today and they said to look at section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 and quote that in a letter to Shenstone and to try reporting them to Trading Standards.

So I contacted Trading Standards but they said they cant help me with it because it is connected to property and said I should try the property Ombudsman. They are closed for the night so I will phone them tomorrow.

There must be some government department or someone that can investigate this and fight our case and sort out companies like Shenstone.

We need to organise ourselves and write in bulk to the right place and get someone to take notice.

[jeffrey]

section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1970
Here it is:

Part V- Miscellaneous Provisions

40. Punishment for unlawful harassment of debtors.

(1) A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he:
(a) harasses the other with demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;
(b) falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;
(c) falsely represents himself to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment; or
(d) utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.

(2) A person may be guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment.

(3) Subsection (1)(a) above does not apply to anything done by a person which is reasonable (and otherwise permissible in law) for the purpose:
(a) of securing the discharge of an obligation due, or believed by him to be due, to himself or to persons for whom he acts, or protecting himself or them from future loss; or
(b) of the enforcement of any liability by legal process.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine of not more than £100, and on a second or subsequent conviction to a fine of not more than £400.

[dominic]

s.40 AJA is a useful bit of legislation to quote at companies like Shenstone, Simarc, debt collectors and bailiffs!

[dominic]

A question for other legal bods here:

if a mortgagee is approached by a third party debtor does M owe any duty to LH as to the validity of the payment to that third party when it has a contractual right of indemnity or reimbursement for such payment undewr the loan?

I assume it may depend on the terms of the mortgage and loan documentation, but I wondered if there was any case law on the issue.

If not it seems unjust. Although In suppose any reimbursement (whether added to the loan or demanded) from LH could be challenged under the UTCCRS 1999.

[jeffrey]

Note that s.40(3) limits only s.40(1)(a) but does not limit s.40(1)(b)/(c)/(d).

[woodkit]

I received a court summons from Shenstone about 2 weeks ago, would have told you sooner but I have been on holiday. I sent a reply to the court contesting the charges but admitting the ground rent fee. I enclosed copies of Shenstones letters and how I attempted to pay the ground rent numerous times after initially sending the cheque on time. Also sent quotes from this forum speciying people in the same boat. Has anyone on here actually been to court with Shenstone? I am willing to go because of the principle of the matter, if this company used direct debits etc. then none of us would be in this situation!

[Gordon999]

You can attach a copy of a part speech by Mr B Gardiner MP made on 10 Jun 1998concerning Shenstone :

Adam Smith is not the political philosopher most frequently quoted by Labour Members, but he surely understood the inequities of the leasehold system when, in "The Wealth of Nations" he declared:

"Landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed."

I shall now chronicle some of the ways in which landlords reap where they have not sown. Some of the ways are legal, some are illegal, but the reality for the leaseholder is the same: exploitation.
I am sure that all hon. Members wish to see more than the simple closing of the huge gaps in current legislation. What point would there be in making exploitation illegal if it continues unabated because the remedies of the law are so difficult for leaseholders to obtain? Radical reform of the legislation is overdue, but it must bring effective relief.

Let me tell the House about a new breed of landlord, which I call the ground rent grazers. Grazing animals require vast areas to feed on and they make up in bulk what they lack in quality. Simarc, Castle New Tower Holdings, Shenstone's and Estate and Management Ltd. are all ground rent grazers that have bought up literally hundreds of thousands of freehold interests, usually at auction in the north-west of England.

The freehold interests are sold for a few pounds each and, unlike in the south of England, most of the leasehold properties involved are houses rather than flats. The

10 Jun 1998 : Column 1000

ground rent grazers have little interest in the ground rents themselves, as they are usually a minimal annual sum of a few pounds. Unlike a service charge, however, a ground rent is due whether demanded or not, and on a house, unlike on a flat, the right of forfeiture can be pursued by the landlord for arrears of ground rent. For the sake of a £20 ground rent that is a day overdue, and has not even been demanded or invoiced, the ground rent grazer can start recovery proceedings, and on top of that £20 can charge a fee for the recovery costs incurred. That is what those companies want.

(http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo980610/debtext/80610-04.htm )

[BevB]

Sorry I've not posted anything for a while...I'm still in dispute with Shenstone about £70 Admin charge for late payment of ground rent. I've sent 5 or 6 cheques to them for £18 ground rent (starting to lose count now!) but they are refusing to accept them unless I also pay £70 admin fee because they claim my original payment was late. I've written to LAS who have given me all the usual advice about how ground rent should be demanded etc but Shenstone appear to (in my case) have done everything right - apart from cash my cheque on time!. My dispute with Shenstone is that they shouldn't have needed to apply the Admin charge in the first place because they should have received my payment on time. However, I've just received a letter from them...they say they are willing to reduce the charge to £35 if I pay within 14 days (they also remind me that I verbally agreed to pay the full £88 - which I didn't). I'm now in a bit of a dilemma...do I pay the £35 charge which seems more reasonable and at least it would bring the matter to a close? Or do I stand my ground – why should I pay any admin fee when I made my payment on time? Any advice?

[leaseholdanswers]

1: if the invoice has a bank account number on it pay it direct.

2: If 1 is possible refuse to pay the admin fee and let them try and recover it, and if they say it is an admin cost under the lease then say you will be happy to respond to any application to the LVT they wish to make.

3: Their party trick is add costs that it takes too much bother to argue about.
Pay them direct and call their bluff, just keep evidence so that if they ever did proceed you can shown how silly they are.

NB on 2 it is assumed that such fees can be charged on rent arrears, however I have come accross leases where it less than clear, or refer to service charges only eg by referring to the clause where the tenant pays service charges and overlooking rent. Always check.

[dominic]

Is Shenstone the LL or the agent?

If it is the agent, just pay the ground rent only to the LL directly.

[BevB]

Dominic- how do I find out if Shenstone is the LL or just the agent?

[dominic]

Check the landregistry entry for the owner of the freehold of your building.

Or better, check your lease.

[leaseholdanswers]

It should be on teh ground rent demand.

[jeffrey]

It should be on teh ground rent demand.
Yes: s.47 of LTA 1985.

[leaseholdanswers]

Most agents include under sections blah blah the landlord is and the address is.

Some in small print say demanded as agents for ABC LTD so you may have to look everywhere.

[jeffrey]

Most agents include under sections blah blah the landlord is and the address is.

Some in small print say demanded as agents for ABC LTD so you may have to look everywhere.
Even Simarc includes such details!

[leaseholdanswers]

Yes but is it in point 6 times New Roman !:)

[woodkit]

Sorry I've not posted anything for a while...I'm still in dispute with Shenstone about £70 Admin charge for late payment of ground rent. I've sent 5 or 6 cheques to them for £18 ground rent (starting to lose count now!) but they are refusing to accept them unless I also pay £70 admin fee because they claim my original payment was late. I've written to LAS who have given me all the usual advice about how ground rent should be demanded etc but Shenstone appear to (in my case) have done everything right - apart from cash my cheque on time!. My dispute with Shenstone is that they shouldn't have needed to apply the Admin charge in the first place because they should have received my payment on time. However, I've just received a letter from them...they say they are willing to reduce the charge to £35 if I pay within 14 days (they also remind me that I verbally agreed to pay the full £88 - which I didn't). I'm now in a bit of a dilemma...do I pay the £35 charge which seems more reasonable and at least it would bring the matter to a close? Or do I stand my ground – why should I pay any admin fee when I made my payment on time? Any advice?

Hi Bev, hope you read this before you decide what to do! As I said in a previous thread I had been summonsed to court by Shenstone. So, I replied to the court that I disputed the £70.00 costs but was more than willing to pay the £13.16 ground rent (that I had attempted to pay on numerous occasions!) and sent them a copy of all my correspondence with Shenstone and my returned cheques along with copies of some of this thread!
Well yesterday I received a letter from Burton County Court stating
"To the Defendant
You have made an offer of payment which the claimant has accepted.
It is therefore ordered that you must pay the claimant £13.16 for debt and £30.00 for costs.
You must therefore pay the claimant the total of £43.16 forthwith."

Result! apart from the court costs of course, but that is money that Shenstone have already paid to Burton County Court, so in effect all they are getting from me is the £13.16 ground rent.

In your case then Bev you can either meet them halfway at £35.00 or wait for your summons and admit part payment to the court which I did. If they accepted like in my case then you would only save yourself £5.00 but Shenstone would only be getting exactly what they are owed as the £30.00 in costs is what they will have already paid out.
I also queried the court as to why I had to foot the costs and they said it was because I had admitted part of the amount in the case with Stella Wagstaff and Scumstone!
Never mind, they never got a penny more than they are legally entitled to and I had great joy in ringing Mrs Wagstaff this morning and letting her know that I had fulfilled the promise I made to her back in November!

[dominic]

It still dismays me that you are having to pay more than just the rent.

You should not be liable for any costs.

[BevB]

woodkit - Thanks for the update! I'm pleased you've got a result after all this time :) I've not replied to Shenstone's latest letter yet. If you don't mind, I'll quote your court case and see if I can reduce the charge a bit further....after all I'll be saving them some money too!

[andydd]

Found this on the interweb, it does touch on the management companys' (Simarc) refusal to give the leasee their bank details, and also whether they can refuse payment, it also the rather more confusing issue of writing to the leasee (with ground rent demands)bwhen they live abroad.

http://www.rpts.gov.uk/Files/2010/July/1000260E.pdf

Andy

[adambucky]

Ok im back. Shenstones dropped my charges from 105 to 70. I just ignored them. Now they have told me i owe 35. Cheque sent for that recorded delivery.

[snowtwirl]

Hallo
Hope this is posted in vaguely the right place. I have a flat in Brighton and
I have applied for a lease extension and it has been done for 125 yrs with £100 ground rent doubling every 25yrs.
Now I thought this would be from date of 'new' lease but in fact it would seem to go up from £75 /annum now to £100 doubling in 4yrs (25yrs from start of original lease) to £200.
Is this the norm,did I misunderstand,have i been misled,has the freeholder been a bit cheeky??? Is it worth arguing over?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
many thanks
Sarah

[jeffrey]

If you have owned lease for > 2yrs., you have a legal right to obtain a 90yr. extension and ground rent reduced to a peppercorn (non-money rent).

[leaseholdanswers]

Hallo
Hope this is posted in vaguely the right place. I have a flat in Brighton and
I have applied for a lease extension and it has been done for 125 yrs with £100 ground rent doubling every 25yrs.
Now I thought this would be from date of 'new' lease but in fact it would seem to go up from £75 /annum now to £100 doubling in 4yrs (25yrs from start of original lease) to £200.
Is this the norm,did I misunderstand,have i been misled,has the freeholder been a bit cheeky??? Is it worth arguing over?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
many thanks
Sarah

See jeffreys post and go to lease.advice .org for a fuller explanation.

[BevB]

Whoooo! I've finally resolved my issues with Shenstone....I told them I'd be willing to pay £15 (rather than the 'reduced' fee of £35 they were asking for) and they accepted. I know I shouldn't have had to pay anything but I wanted the issue resolving and I didn't want the hassle of it going to court. I'll be sending all my future payments to them by recorded delivery....just in case they misplace any more of my cheques! Thanks for all the advice.:)

[Angef1]

A few weeks ago I stumbled across this site and spent a fair bit of time reading the postings and replies, with interest. I too had sent a £20 cheque in payment of my ground rent for both March & Sept (not having received a reminder bill/invoice for the £10 due in March). Within a week or two I received a similar letter to everyone else, the usual "cheque received outside the allocated timescale" crap and said cheque was duly returned. I did telephone Shenstone aned speak to the very rude Mrs Wagstaffe, airing my grievances but I may as well have saved my breath to blow my porridge. It was whilst I was pondering on my next course of action that I came upon this site and the information I gleaned therein gave me inspiration. I penned another "without prejudice" letter, returned my cheque again and informed them in no uncertain terms their operational procedures were in contravention of ""Section 166 of the..........Act 2006 " -I requested a full itemised breakdown of the £70 admin and recovery charges and my parting shot was to the effect that should my cheque be returned again, I would take this as a desire on their part to enter into litigation and to address all future correspondence to my solicitor Messrs.......of....... The same day I posted my reply, by recorded delivery, another demand arrived on my doorstep in similar terms, giving me 7 days to pay up or else - in not so many words. Unfortunately for Shenstone, they picked on the wrong one in this case. A couple of weeks went by and I hadn't heard a thing from them so I decided to look on my online banking and surprise surprise my cheque had been presented. Success. My blagging had worked. If anyone would like a copy of the letter I sent to Shenstone, e-mail me on twhr@aol.com and I will gladly oblige. The terms of my letter sounded like I knew my way around the law and what I was on about - not quite factual but hey it worked for me and it might for you.
Angef1

[leaseholdanswers]

Invoices must be accompanied with the s166. If it is but a late payment charge or similar is made, check the lease for the basis for any charges as that may both allow those charges to be made, or preclude them, depending on the wording of the lease.

[bluedawm]

Shenstone properties ltd : The business practice of this company is obviously disreputable and dishonest. Their chief point of contact, the one who has all the answers when you call is a master of deception and manipulation of facts and essentially lies to you. The practice of not cashing your cheques in order to bill you more later is shoddy, dishonest and wholly unacceptable. Their is enough evidence on this site to report them to the office of fair trading, also report them to the local trading standards for Staffordshire. Also you local MP. Do not accept the lies and threats of this Mrs Wagstaff, she is a cheat and deciever. All you need to do as a group is present all the infomation contained in the thread above to the appropriate authorities. As for the actual ground rent demands received from Shenstone may I suggest the following...Do not under any circumstances whatsoever accept/part pay or even mention the "Admin & Recovery costs", these are fraudulent costs. This company will not be able to uphold these in a court of law. They will not go to court, the evidence against their practice is overwhelming. You are not avoiding payment of your groud rent this company is simply not allowing you to pay it. Put the payment of your ground rent demand, whether it be in a 'section 166' format or their usual demand letter, into a post office savings account, open the account in your name and in brackets (Shenstone Properties). Forward proof of this account with the ground rent funds in it to Shenstone. Advise Shenstone with a covering letter that the ground rent is now held within the Queens post office awaiting investigation from the trading authorities on the business practices of Shenstone Proprties. Once the enquires have been made by those authorities and appropriate actions taked, then the funds will be made available to whomever is deemed a legally reputable and fit person/company to administer the collection of the ground rent on your property.

[jeffrey]

Post #106 appears defamatory and has been reported to LZ.