HMO Licence required ?

[snadley]

Hi,
I rent out a 4 bedroom house which has a loft conversion so has ground / first and second floors.

I let to a married couple who I understand sub-let to 2 seperate individuals.

Would I need a license ?

Thanks

[ddd]

Yes unless they are all related and close family
ddd

[dhphoto]

I have a two-storey house shared by a group of five friends on a single tenancy AST agreement, would I need a license?

David

[red40]

Nobody can answer your question snadley and dhphoto due to some authorities running additional and selective licensing schemes as well as Mandatory HMO licensing.

With regards to mandatory licensing of HMO's again its impossible to say exactly as your local authority may have applied to the Secretary of State to have the conditions of Mandatory licensing changed to suit their most high risk properties.

Although under Mandatory HMO licensing and the prescibed standard under section 254 it wouldn't qualify, but you need to talk to your local authority, its an impossible question to answer, unfortunately.

The standard for Manadatory licensing is Houses of three or more storeys, including basements and HMOs with shops underneath, plus sharing of an amenity, such as a bathroom, kitchen or toilet facilities and is occupied by five or more occupants. But this can be changed as I said above with the agreement of the Secretary of State.

I should also add that just because you may not have a licensable HMO, it doesn't exclude a HMO under Part 1 of the Housing act 2004, i.e the Housing Health and Safety Rating System, where local authorities can still take enforcement action.

Check the odpm website it has plenty of question and answers and also information for landlords :-
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1163883 your local authority may also have a website with information on.

[dhphoto]

Thanks, very much for the reply.

So, with Councils being the interfering, landlord hating b@@@@@ds they are, I will certainly need an expensive license which will almost certainly be difficult (or impossible) to obtain without huge alterations.

Time I packed this mugs game in I think!

[red40]

No problem DH.

What I am saying is that you need to contact your local authority, if they are only using the standard Mandatory licensing as set by the governemnt, then your property wouldn't be licensable. However they could have applied to alter the mandatory licensing standard altered to suit their high risk housing stock or be using the additional licensing or selective licensing, but I only know of a few authorities that are using the additional and selective licensing.

I can assure you that councils aren't interfering landlord hating people they are only there to implement what legislation says :)

Be pro-active you maybe surprised on how helpful they are;)

[dhphoto]

No problem DH.
I can assure you that councils aren't interfering landlord hating people they are only there to implement what legislation says :)

Be pro-active you maybe surprised on how helpful they are;)

This has certainly not been my experience dealing with Camden Council, a bunch of more left-wing gay-rights capitalist-hating bunch you would be hard pressed to meet. I have no doubt they will want to come and nit-pick over every tiny issue they can possibly find - and then fine me heavily.

The grey area to me is that a household *must* be closely related and cannot be good friends. My bunch are brilliant, they pay one amount each month and are on one AST, they share the facilities happily and I try and help them all I possibly can when things go wrong.

Now the Council will I am sure try and change all that.

One final question then: If I do decide that I cannot afford to make all the Changes the Council dictates, can I evict and sell (with notice obviously), or is that forbidden too, as it will create homelessness?

David

[tigergold]

Thanks, very much for the reply.

So, with Councils being the interfering, landlord hating b@@@@@ds they are, I will certainly need an expensive license which will almost certainly be difficult (or impossible) to obtain without huge alterations.

Time I packed this mugs game in I think!

This new legislation will be the death of the private landlord. Its got nothing to do with making a safe standard of living for tenants – its just a money making scheme for the government and keeping the paper shufflers in the council in work – if the standard of living in a property was so awful, tenants would vote with their feet and leave !

[red40]

If you have a HMO that requires Mandatory Licensing, I cant say for selective or additional, but there are restrictions on issuing section 21 notices under 1b) and 4(a)for an AST, as long as that property remains a HMO.

If anybody wants to refer to this section of the Housing Act 2004, its Part 2 (Mandatory Licensing) section 75 (1) and (2)

[snadley]

After talking with my local authority, it looks like I don't need a license as the property is occupied by 4 people, not 5.

So, I've been told I do not need to do anything further.

Snadley

[caroline7758]

I don't think most councils have got the staff to do more than the mandatory licensing at first. They can charge what they want for licenses because it's got to be a self-funding exercise, the govt. are giving no money for it. Read in the paper some councils are charging £1,100 per license!

[Patois]

This new legislation will be the death of the private landlord. Its got nothing to do with making a safe standard of living for tenants – its just a money making scheme for the government and keeping the paper shufflers in the council in work – if the standard of living in a property was so awful, tenants would vote with their feet and leave

There are very fine landlords out there that look after both property and tenants very well.

Some (and I know from experience - in my area - many) do not and let to very vulnerable tenants who do not have the choice to vote with their feet.
Firstly they are not always economically sound and cannot get decent accommodation (so put up with dangerous) and secondly they know that if they did leave they would end up with no deposit back for anywhere else.

Yes there are always the tossers who know what they are doing and screw landlords - and there are the landlords who screw the tenants (they often deserve each other)
But....
there are a lot of stupid and ignorant landlords out there who have absolutely no idea about what they are doing and put their properties and tenants at risk.

Sorry got a bit carried away

[dhphoto]

I've just been told by the Council that my property doesn't require a licence because it is only on two floors. Nothing else mattered, just this fact alone means no license.

I think the guy got it wrong but hey, I've got his name so I can just quote that if there is a problem

David

[red40]

The council would be right David, Mandatory licensing applies to three or more storeys, 5 individuals in two seperate households and who share at least one amenity

[dhphoto]

The council would be right David, Mandatory licensing applies to three or more storeys, 5 individuals in two seperate households and who share at least one amenity

Is it AND or OR ?

That's really my point, there are 5 friends sharing, one agreement, one rent, shared living room etc - so is it 3 floors AND 5 individuals or

5 individuals OR

two households?

Do you see my distinction?

David

[red40]

For mandatory licensing there must be at least 5 occupants, who form two seperate households, on three or more storeys AND share at least one of the basic amenities. Attached is a link to the prescribed description of a licenseable HMO. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/uksi_20060371_en.pdf

Hopefully thi makes it a little clearer:)

[dhphoto]

For mandatory licensing there must be at least 5 occupants, who form two seperate households, on three or more storeys AND share at least one of the basic amenities. Attached is a link to the prescribed description of a licenseable HMO. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/uksi_20060371_en.pdf

Hopefully thi makes it a little clearer:)

It does, thanks

I wish I had seen that document before, it is exactly what I wanted to see (ours has just two floors so we're cast iron certain now) :)

[tenants lager]

This subject is very confusing.

Can two couple's and another person (all unrelated) move into a house/flat, with 3/4 bedrooms without the need for any special licensing?

What about 4 people?

[dhphoto]

This subject is very confusing.

Can two couple's and another person (all unrelated) move into a house/flat, with 3/4 bedrooms without the need for any special licensing?

What about 4 people?

I would say a total of 5 occupants on no more than 2 floors would not need a license. The document/link I referred to in the earlier post is most helpful and thankfully understandable

David