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T.M.
29-03-2005, 14:06 PM
Hi all. I would really be grateful for any information with the following questions. It’s a first time situation for me, and anything would help.

My tenant had signed a tenancy agreement for 6 months on 23.01.05.
But today she has moved out! Only notified me couple of days ago!
and finally
today left me the keys as I requested ( constantly, what a battle that was in itself)!!

Anyway, she has left belongings there like, a double bed (which was denied as I provided Single Bed but she ignored anyway, a table, a chair, some bags of clothing etc…


What I wanted to know, was

When and how can I remove these items?
Is there a time limit I have to give her to allow her to remove them? What if she fails this time limit?
What if she refuses to remove them?
What can I or cant I do with the items?

If you know what i mean...!

For those that normally help with this and other questions before,
THANK YOU
T.M.

ALIEN1X
29-03-2005, 18:04 PM
Hi,

Well I get this from every tenant that comes and goes.
As far as Iam concerned, as soon they have officailly checked out including checkout inventory agreed, then you can do what you like.

However, if you have a deposit I would charge for rubish clearance.
Iam reallt fed up of clearing up all the left over items. And do check out the loft space, as I had found enough up there to start a boot sale.

Regards
Alien

T.M.
30-03-2005, 19:50 PM
Hi Alien. thanks for your reply.

my dilemma is this really

She left in a hurry! Taxi waiting outside! I got my keys back but there was no time for any conversation or inventory checking etc..at all!!!
Yesterday i spoke to her on mobile.
She has left country for few months according to her, but i do know that she was off to airport yesterday and that was confirmed by another tenant that went with her.
On the mobile she admitted that she has now left (tho she kept saying she will send someone to pick up things etc..etc...blah blah..)!!

All i wanted to hear was that she left! But nothing formal was signed at all. She breached 6 month contract by leaving after 2 months!


So How long do you think i should have to hold onto her bed, and clothing items in bags and other boxes etc... (given the circumstances and information above) before i chuck it out!!!??

I just dont want to do anything wrong but im fed up with her crap and want to get it out of my system for good if u know what i mean!!

Thanks for your help ..and anyone else.
T.M.

Rose
11-02-2008, 12:44 PM
Hi, I'd really appreciate some advice.

We rent out rooms with full permission from our landlord and have been doing so for the past three years trouble free. We recently had trouble with a new lodger/sub-tenant (I don't legally know what these people are classed as although we have no written contract with them) who we eventually asked to leave (we gave her one month's notice). She decided to use her security deposit as her final month's rent which we were unhappy about (obviously). Her rent was already three days late. Eventually, and after an argument, she moved out the same day leaving us short of rent but with her security deposit of half a month's rent.

She has left a few personal items in the house, we notified her on the day she left asking her to collect these items within the next 7 days.

My question is: What can we legally do with the items she left? Can we charge her for storage/sell them/throw them out etc?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Colincbayley
11-02-2008, 14:58 PM
You had issued a licence to lodge for your guest, as such she falls outside of the 1988/1996 housing act.

If you have given her notice to collect her things and she hasn't, then you can pretty much do as you wish with them.

Rose
11-02-2008, 15:21 PM
Many thanks for your reply. It seems to be a difficult area to find information on. Do you know if there is a minimum period we must hold her belongings for? i.e. 7 days, 3 months etc?

Colincbayley
11-02-2008, 15:30 PM
Many thanks for your reply. It seems to be a difficult area to find information on. Do you know if there is a minimum period we must hold her belongings for? i.e. 7 days, 3 months etc?

Under a tenancy agreement, I seem to remember the period being 90 days.

However, your tenant was only a lodger, If you have given her 7 days and she has collected her belonging, then I think you will find you are safe disposing of them.

Rose
11-02-2008, 15:43 PM
Thank you for you opinion.

Do you know where I can find out for sure what my "sub-tenants" are classed as (i.e. lodger/sub-tenant/excluded occupier?)? It also seems to be a very shady and complicated area. I have no written contracts with them although I do take a deposit and write receipts where necessary.

cute boxer dog
11-02-2008, 19:12 PM
My tenant has just left, we had to get a court order but luckily he left before bailiff action. A few answers please - appreciated:

He left some large items of furniture - can we get rid of them?

The day after he left he came back to the property for a table - he let himself in when we weren't - is this illegal? Of course we have now changed the locks!

Due to his debt he has prepayment meters for gas and electricity - would you advise us to keep these for any new tenants or change to a credit meter? Should he have let us know these meters were put in?

The carpets were soaked with dog and cat pee and bird and rabbit droppings were everywhere leaving our house smelling vile! A zoo is fragrant compared to this - it was a face mask job ! Can I claim off him for new carpets? Thank you

Beeber
11-02-2008, 19:47 PM
Did he hand back the keys or notify you that he had left?

How have you covered yourself against the tenant claiming that you've illegally evicted them by changing the locks before they'd moved out of the property?

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

with regards to the intended deductions, did you have an inventory signed by the tenant?

Surrey
11-02-2008, 21:50 PM
Surely if there's a court order in place that states the tenant must leave, then the tenant can't claim illegal eviction, or have I gone completely mad?

jeffrey
11-02-2008, 21:52 PM
Surely if there's a court order in place that states the tenant must leave, then the tenant can't claim illegal eviction, or have I gone completely mad?
You're right, but OP said that T vacated without bailiff intervention; only bailiffs can lawfully evict T by force.

Surrey
11-02-2008, 22:03 PM
Sorry, I'm obviously having one of those platinum moments.

The landlord has a court order for the tenant to leave.
The tenant left.
How could a tenant now claim illegal eviction?

Ericthelobster
12-02-2008, 07:05 AM
Sorry, I'm obviously having one of those platinum moments.

The landlord has a court order for the tenant to leave.
The tenant left.
How could a tenant now claim illegal eviction?

"I never left - just went to stay with a mate for a couple of nights - I've been away househunting cos the landlord's evicting me. I left my stuff in the house but when I came back home, I found he'd gone and changed the locks on me so I was out on the streets with nowhere to go..."

jeffrey
12-02-2008, 09:00 AM
"I never left - just went to stay with a mate for a couple of nights - I've been away househunting cos the landlord's evicting me. I left my stuff in the house but when I came back home, I found he'd gone and changed the locks on me so I was out on the streets with nowhere to go..."
"I found that he'd done a runner, sir, but I was pleased that he did vacate in compliance with my Court Order against him..."

Rose
13-02-2008, 10:05 AM
A property lawyer who I work with has said the following and I was wondering if anyone could comment?:

"Basically if you can reasonably think they've abandoned it, you can get rid of it. If it's expensive stuff, you're safest serving a formal notice (which I can find for you) and then sticking it on ebay or something and offering her the money, but if it's just a load of junk I would write to her again saying that you believe it has been abandoned and intend to dispose of it unless she contacts you by x date."

The ex-lodger has contacted me, although she still hasn't collected her belongings - which I have given her two dates to collect by.

Any comments apprecaited. Thanks.

tsu3000
23-04-2008, 15:49 PM
Hi

My tenant decided to do a runner today and left the property in a hurry. He took most of his belongings but left some items. His contract expires on Fri and he left me all the keys and about 2000GBP worth of damage. His deposit does not cover the costs and his withheld rent for the last month.

Can I legally dispose of his items? I am assuming he won't be coming back to collect since he will have no way of entering the property. What is my legal position?

Also I am thinking about getting some form of compensation from the agent that recommended him in the first place. He has been a total nightmare. They said he was ideal blah blah blah and passed all the credit checks etc. He was OK for the 1st year but then things started to go wrong during the S21 two month notice period. He started to break furniture, put holes in walls etc. Do I have a case against the agent? They are keeping quiet and said they are not responsible.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

Colincbayley
23-04-2008, 15:54 PM
You need to be CERTAIN that he has given the property up as he may be laying a trap for you.
Did he hand you the keys or just leave them at the property?

With regards to his belongings, you have an obligation to store these ( at his cost ) for 90 days.

tsu3000
23-04-2008, 17:20 PM
All the keys I gave him were left in the property and they are special high security ones which have to be specially ordered and cannot be replicated in a normal high street store. So I am certain that he has not got copies.

Doesn't the expired contract and the fact he has already left signal that he has given up the property? ie Can I take it over after the contract has expired?

I doubt I will be able to recover the costs for storage from him since he has not bothered to give me a forwarding address or new telephone number.

Thanks.

Beeber
23-04-2008, 17:32 PM
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

tsu3000
23-04-2008, 19:45 PM
Thanks for the links.

Once the S21 has expired do I still have the right to re-let the property or do I still need a PO?

Regarding his few items left behind is it correct to say that if I stored them for 3 months and the items are not collected has I dispose of them?

Thanks.

tsu3000
23-04-2008, 21:44 PM
The T has not given me a forwarding address to contact him. He has also changed his contact number. So I am assuming he doesn't want to be contacted.

mind the gap
18-07-2008, 20:50 PM
Thank you!

Does the bailor have the right to complain if the amount raised by the sale of his/her goods was a lot less than he/she believed them to be worth?

Or can the bailee dispose of them in the most convenient way possible, even if this does not produce much money, and the bailor has to lump it?

worriedlandlord
30-07-2008, 15:53 PM
We finally managed to get some justice in our battle against the dreadful "permitted occupiers" thanks to the members of this site.

The court gave us immediate possession of the property, however the occupiers (not tenants) are still there. We have been given a date by the bailiffs for 14th August, however I just wanted to know what happens if when we get full possession of the property, the occupants personal belongings are still there?

I was advised by someone that I don't have the right to remove their personal belongings as this is their property and I could get done for criminal damage, theft etc...

What rights do I have as the Landlord after the Bailiffs have given me possession with regards to ex-occuppier's property?

Do I need to write to them to explain that they must take all their belongings with them before vacating the property?

Thanks

andyr
28-08-2008, 21:48 PM
My tenant was evicted by high court bailiffs with apparent complete surprise to himself, despite being given a week's notice, and despite this happening after nearly nine months of not paying rent and county court judgement in my favour as landlord way back in May.

This left the property full of their belongings as they had made no effort to move from the premises despite all the months of advance warning that this was going to occur.

Eventually the court made an order for the tenant's girlfriend and helpers to have re-access to the property between 10am and 5pm on Sunday with the actual tenant explicitly barred from attending due to prior behavior. They were given this order more than two weeks before the actual date arranged for removal, so had plenty of time to organise.

This went smoothly until the end of the day when the tenant turned up, despite the order against him, with him realising that they had not arranged enough transport for all their belongings which were starting to pile up on the street (under the steam of the tenant's girlfriend's helpers).

Despite there only being a few items still left in my property (2 desks, one mattress and three miscellaneous boxes) he stormed into the building and up to the second floor, and started getting very abusive and threatening to my sister in law who was overseeing events in my absence.

Not only did he refuse to let anything else leave my flat, he also threw one of their office chairs at her at the internal entrance of my flat which hit her square in the leg. At that point she said she was going to call the police and he promptly legged it.

She has since reported this as assault to the police, however in the meantime I've put the remaining items out into the common area with various other items that they didn't collect at the time and let them know they can come and get them any time they like before friday when they will be disposed of by a clearance firm.

All I've had in return in is a garbled message saying that the tenant will prosecute me for disposing of non distrainable goods that he values at over £10,000. This despite the fact that it's obvious none of these worn bits of furniture are worth any more than £100 at the very least.

Anyway, my question is, when I have the clearance people finally remove these items tomorrow, just how much do I need to worry about these ridiculous threats?

My sister in law stayed an extra three hours extra on top of the period made by the court order as a huge show of good will and made it perfectly clear she would still stay as long as it took for them to get all their possessions out (in fact the remaining things would have only taken an extra 10 minutes to remove).

I've put them out with the substantial pile of belongings that they left behind in the common area, and they've had more than three days to be able to collect these at their own convenience.

I might also add that my tenant has been made bankrupt (from his previous landlord who he skipped out on leaving a huge unpaid rent bill behind and whom he lied to me about on his application to rent my property with a fake previous landlord's reference!) and was even claming thousands of pounds of housing benefit from the council while pleading complete poverty to me whenever I asked for rent!

Any opnion, considered, or not so considered, would be received very gratefully.

House
28-08-2008, 22:24 PM
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=11789

Pobinr
29-08-2008, 07:42 AM
Only some legal beaurocrat could have thought up such needlessly complex unfair rules that put the onus on the landlord as thanks for the thoughtlessness of this particularly stupid unpleasant tenant.
The law should be... Once the tenancy has ended, LL should be able to give the tenant a weeks notice to collect the items. If not collected then the LL should be able to dispose of as he sees fit. If the goods were that important to the tenant then they should have taken them when they vacated the property wouldn't they.
The LL should also be able to claim storage cost & for the time he had to waste. If the property was the only place he had to store the goods before disposal then he should also be owed an additional weeks rent by the T.

Whilst most tenants are great, Unfortunately there are a minority of tenants that seem to think rental accomodation means 'serviced appartment'. So they live there for 2 or 3 years. Don't lift a finger to clean anything. Then move out expecting me to deal with 2 or 3 years worth of dirt & unwanted items. Consequently when my tenants give me notice I now send them this message. I'm going to start incorporating this into the AST contracts so in future the tenants will know right from the outset what is req'd of them & they will have signed in agreement of the terms:-

"Guidelines on vacation of property

Thank you for giving me notice that you wish to vacate my property.
Please read this thoroughly.
For you to receive your deposit refunded in full the following conditions need to be met:

1) The dwelling must be completely clear of all rubbish & all your possessions.

2) All cupboards, wardrobes & drawers etc must be completely empty of all rubbish or unwanted items & the flat must be completely clear of all your furniture & belongings. Not so much as a can opener left behind please. No rubbish to be left anywhere outside other than in the refuse bins.
PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE THINGS THAT YOU DO NOT WANT ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOU THINK THE NEXT OCCUPANT MIGHT FIND THEM USEFUL. It’s nearly always the case that people do not want it & we wind up having to dispose of it.
THEREFORE YOU MUST REMOVE ALL YOUR POSSESSIONS & RUBBISH FROM THE PROPERTY.

We charge £30 per hour from your deposit money if we have to spend time disposing of your rubbish or unwanted possessions.

We charge £30 per hour from your deposit money if we have to spend time cleaning the property.

Checking for cleanliness
Run your finger along cupboard tops & shelves, cooker hood, window frames, edges of kitchen cupboard doors, worktops, skirting boards etc. If it picks up dirt or feels sticky with grease then it’s not clean. I will also do this test to see if flat is properly clean.

Notes on cleaning.

The flat needs to be deep cleaned.

Deep cleans cost between £200 & £300 if contracted out to cleaners. If you clean the flat properly then we will not need to take cleaning costs from your deposit. This is our preferred option.

The definition of ‘Deep Clean’ means cleaning areas often overlooked. Such as moving out the fridge & washing machine & thoroughly cleaning by wiping the floor & skirting boards behind them. Lifting Microwave oven off brackets where applicable & clean brackets & back of microwave.
Clean/vacuum the area behind & under all your furniture & bed.
Toilet cleaned/descaled inside the bowl, under the rim & outside.
Clean all areas including behind lavatory etc.
Clean inside & outside of kitchen cupboards. Clean the tops of cupboards. Clean the doors. The drawer fronts, edges of drawer fronts etc.
Descale taps & shower hose, riser rail etc etc
Note: Lidl’s ‘W5 descaler’ is one of the best descalers.
The curtains must be dry cleaned. They will shrink if machine washed.

3) The flat must be cleaned including, doors, carpets, walls, skirting boards, switches, sockets, light switches, light fittings, bath, doors, mirrors, windows, showers, baths, tiles, taps, shower fittings, inside & outside of kitchen appliances, cooker & hood, inside & outside of fridge, inside of cupboards, drawers, behind cupboards, behind the bed, under the bed, behind the washing machine & fridge etc.

4) The flat must be free from any mildew on the walls, window frames, skirting boards, curtains etc, caused by condensation from lack of airing/heating of the flat.

5) The flat along with the fixtures & fittings & any furniture/appliances supplied must be undamaged.

6} All burned out light bulbs must be replaced with bulbs of appropriate wattage such that all the lights are working.

7) There must be no evidence that telephone, or computer or TV cables have been run through walls or tacked or stapled or glued or taped or fixed in anyway whatsoever to walls or architraves or skirting boards or anything else in the flat during the tenancy.

8) Kitchen worktops must be undamaged by hot items placed on them or food chopped on them.

9) Carpets must be cleaned & free from stains.

Please ensure your mail is redirected.
We do not take responsibility for forwarding mail.

Cleaning check list

1) Carpets vacuumed and free from stains and damage and cleaned.

2) Soft furnishings (where provided) free from dirt, dust, grease, cobwebs and stains including underneath.

3) Curtains dry cleaned, unshrunk & free from dirt, dust, grease, cobwebs and stains.

4) Curtain tracks free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

5) Ceilings and covings free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

6) Walls free from dents, scratches, mould and greasy finger marks

7) Lamp fittings, cables and shades free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

8) Light switches and electrical sockets free from dirt, dust, and greasy finger marks.

9) Bathroom chrome taps and shower fittings clean and shining and free from lime scale and grease.

10) Basin, WC & seat, underneath seat, shower door panels & tray/bath, clean, shining & free from mould, lime scale & grease.

11) Shower room and or bathroom tiles clean and shining and free from mould, lime scale and grease.

12) Tops, sides, bottoms and shelves and insides of all cupboards free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

13) Inside & outside of wardrobes & floor standing cupboards free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

14) Areas underneath beds and floor standing cupboards free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

15) Inside and outside of fridge and area behind free from mould, dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

16) Cooker hob, inside and outside of oven & area behind free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

17) Inside and outside of cooker extractor hood free from dirt, dust and grease.

18) Inside and outside of washing machine and area behind free from dirt, dust and grease.

19) Kitchen sink and worktop free from dirt, dust and grease.

20) Chrome kitchen taps clean and shining and free from lime scale and grease.

21) The walls and corners of rooms free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

22) Skirting boards free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

23) Doors, door frames, door handles, window frames & glass free from dirt, dust, grease and cobwebs.

24) Other nooks & crannies behind fridge washing machine etc free from dirt, dust, grease& cobwebs.

25) Other items not included in the list, clean and undamaged.

andyr
29-08-2008, 10:15 AM
Cheers.

My lawyer says he would undoubtedly lose any court action given the circumstances, however as a bankrupt he could cause me to incur substantial costs defending just out of maliciousness, and although we could apply for security of costs this would not be guaranteed.

Sounds like I'm pretty much screwed.

This whole thing has been by far the worst experience of my entire life. I can't tell you how angry I get when I see my 7 months pregnant wife absolutely distraught and in floods of tears over what this guy has done to us.

If I'd had any idea at the start of what was going to happen once he stopped paying rent at the end of last year I don't think I would have taken the legal route to try and resolve this.

davidjohnbutton
29-08-2008, 10:34 AM
I have read carefully what you have put and would say that, having attended quite a few evictions over the years, one for my own properties and the others for clients:-

1. You don't send a woman into a situation like this where there is the slightest possibility that there will be confrontational events and the risk that, as did happen, the tenant appears. Sorry ladies but you are not equipped to deal with a situation like this unless you have backup. I always have two persons attending evictions or attendances for removal of tenants goods "double crewed" I also take where I consider it appropriate a German Shepherd Dog who will be used, under control, to make any attacker back off. If you have ever watched "bailiffs" on TV - that blond woman Sue White always goes around with a brick sh*t house on legs doesnt she?????

2. On the attendance of the tenant, your SIL should have made a 999 call to police immediately he appeared - the tenant could then have been arrested for breach of a court order or contempt. In any event, this should be reported back to the court for the judge to deal with as contempt of court.

3. You are an unwilling bailee of the goods you have put out, you still have to take care of them and deal with then under the uncollected goods, torts regulations. Store the goods in your garage, charge a weekly fee for storage, tell the tenant to arrange for his friends only to collect and if he has not collected after the prescribed time, dispose of them, by sale if they are worth anything, take your fees out and remit the rest if any to him unless there is a set-off you can use (i.e. unpaid rent) in which case apply it to that.

4. Your lawyer is right - the tenant would lose any court case outright - he failed to remove the goods when he was allowed to - you are giving him a second chance to remove the rest of them failing which you will store them in accordance with the law and then dispose of them as permitted by law if not collected. I will almost guarantee you won't get a summons because any decent solicitor will advise your tenant he wont win. However, not all solicitors are decent and if you do get a summons, all you have to do is defend it - produce the court order and your subsequent requests to remove the remaining goods which ultimately were dealt with in the following manner etc.

Stop worrying - reassure your wife and get on with your life and don't be moved from taking the legal route because if you do it any other way, you are just opening up big wide roads for the tenants solicitor to drive down as well as potentially putting yourself within risk of prosecution for unlawful acts, most of which carry prison sentences for landlords.

andyr
31-08-2008, 00:44 AM
Write to the tenant by registered post or recorded delivery with a legal notice. This will notify them that the goods are available for collection and that they will be kept for up to three months.

I presume this is on condition of T paying all reasonable storage and removal costs incurred before these are released?

Also, do I have the right to demand that the substantial amount of rent arrears is also settled before releasing these goods?

Bear in mind T has already removed the vast majority of his possessions a under court order for access (9 hours in total) and has still left these small number of possession in my property, with rather ludicrous rants about how he can get more court orders to remove whatever he wants from the property whenever he wants, like it's some kind of free storage area he can access at his leisure!

attilathelandlord
31-08-2008, 09:58 AM
distraint of goods for rent arrears is no longer legal.

Give them a month to collect, if they don't then goods will be disposed of and any monies made will go against rent owed.

All these costs are tax deductible any way, including unpaid rent.

mind the gap
31-08-2008, 15:02 PM
That is a fantastically detailed set of instructions which I for one will be using next time. Thank you!

The bags of clothes and broken kitchen equipment left by students 'in case anyone wants them' (as if!) drive me to the point of homicide. I fell like yelling, NO! No one wants your horrible cast-offs! Take them to Oxfam yourself! (Some of them seem to think this would be a treat for you or something! 'Er...I won't be coming back to the house now as I've got my next house to sort out-would someonejust pop those 6 dustbin liners of stuff down to the charity shop for me?) £30 per hour - is that reasonable and legal? If it is I will definitely be charging it next time.

Having just spent the best part of a week cleaning and clearing a house which the tenants claimed to have 'sorted' (but had barely touched), I have come to the despondent conclusion that it's a tiny minority of the population who have any idea about 'deep cleaning'.

I have tried this rule of thumb in the past : When you think you've cleared and cleaned a room, ask yourself : if this was your room in a holiday apartment or hotel, for which you had paid a lot of money, would you find it acceptable? But your specific list is better.

Being introduced to white spirit as a very effective de-greaser is often a revelation to them, but in the end, they just need to learn how to bloody well roll their sleeves up and get their hands dirty! Or employ someone who IS prepared to.

I feel better now for letting off a bit of steam.

andyr
01-09-2008, 09:34 AM
I'm not looking to exercise distraint here and as the items consist of a desk, table and mattress they probably aren't distrainable anyway.

T's partner was allowed to return to the property with removalist under court order for a full day to take their possessions and while T did collect the vast majority of belongings T failed to collect these few remaining items. T also refused to return and collect them at his convenience over the whole of the following week. T just gave me some kind of nasty rant about how he could "get another f'ing court order to get into my f'ing flat whenever he f'ing well wanted to".

I've now put these things into storage as I need to have the flat rented out again, but I'm more than happy to return them to T so long as T pays the storage costs that are now beginning to accrue.

Anyway, I don't expect to ever get a single penny out of T, so I presume that I can dispose of these items after the period of time prescribed by law for which I'm responsible for keeping them safe and that distraint can be avoided by keeping unpaid rent out of the equation?

The value of these items is very low and I doubt very much they would cover the storage costs - more likely it would cost me money to have them disposed of. The final sum I would then look to be added onto T's existing liability.

sharonparry
01-10-2008, 17:25 PM
HI all

Can anybody tell me what to do about my old tenants possesions?

The rent has not been paid since 27th July 2008. We tried for weeks to contact her without success via her mobile as thats the only way to leave messages. We managed to gain access to the house and it was obvious that nobody has been living there and what a mess. We changed the locks and finally the tenant contacted us as she needed to get some things from the house. The council were paying for her rent until July, we informed them that the house had been abandoned. It turns out that our tenant has been living else where for the last 6-7 weeks and has been using the house as a place for storage. Now she wants access to get a few things and has told us she still lives there. All we want is for her to remove her belongings. What do I have to do to get her to do this as there's no way I'm letting her back in.

sdl103
01-10-2008, 19:03 PM
we put everything in our storage facility and advertised in the local paper for 3 weeks and then chucked it out . luckely the tenant didnt come back for the stuff but it also wasnt worth much i would definetlt consult a solicitor! next time as it did concern me that i could be sued for loss of goods or something . dodgy tenants dont generally come back they normally run for the hills



HI all

Can anybody tell me what to do about my old tenants possesions?

The rent has not been paid since 27th July 2008. We tried for weeks to contact her without success via her mobile as thats the only way to leave messages. We managed to gain access to the house and it was obvious that nobody has been living there and what a mess. We changed the locks and finally the tenant contacted us as she needed to get some things from the house. The council were paying for her rent until July, we informed them that the house had been abandoned. It turns out that our tenant has been living else where for the last 6-7 weeks and has been using the house as a place for storage. Now she wants access to get a few things and has told us she still lives there. All we want is for her to remove her belongings. What do I have to do to get her to do this as there's no way I'm letting her back in.

mind the gap
01-10-2008, 19:20 PM
HI all

Can anybody tell me what to do about my old tenants possesions?

The rent has not been paid since 27th July 2008. We tried for weeks to contact her without success via her mobile as thats the only way to leave messages. We managed to gain access to the house and it was obvious that nobody has been living there and what a mess. We changed the locks and finally the tenant contacted us as she needed to get some things from the house. The council were paying for her rent until July, we informed them that the house had been abandoned. It turns out that our tenant has been living else where for the last 6-7 weeks and has been using the house as a place for storage. Now she wants access to get a few things and has told us she still lives there. All we want is for her to remove her belongings. What do I have to do to get her to do this as there's no way I'm letting her back in.

1 What kind of tenancy agreement does she have?
2 When did it begin?
3 Had you begun any process e.g section 21, section 8, to get her out? When?
(It may have been illegal for you to change the locks and gain access, even if you thought she had moved out).

oaktree
01-10-2008, 19:25 PM
This is a common problem; I would agree to meet them at the property with a letter of surrender for her to sign then give her the stuff back.

Don't ever change the locks on the property until you have legal possession. No matter how wrong the tenant is, you are the one who will be prosecuted!

In future it is worth having a clause in your agreement dealing with tenants possesions left in a property.

PaulF
02-10-2008, 08:28 AM
HI all

Can anybody tell me what to do about my old tenants possesions?

The rent has not been paid since 27th July 2008. We tried for weeks to contact her without success via her mobile as thats the only way to leave messages. We managed to gain access to the house and it was obvious that nobody has been living there and what a mess. We changed the locks and finally the tenant contacted us as she needed to get some things from the house. The council were paying for her rent until July, we informed them that the house had been abandoned. It turns out that our tenant has been living else where for the last 6-7 weeks and has been using the house as a place for storage. Now she wants access to get a few things and has told us she still lives there. All we want is for her to remove her belongings. What do I have to do to get her to do this as there's no way I'm letting her back in.Unfortunately by your actions you have committed a criminal offence and you could find yourself on the wrong side of damages amounting to a few thousand pounds! I kid you not! She only needs to go to the CAB, local Housing Officer or Consumer Direct and you will find life very difficult. You should use only legal remedies no matter how costly and time consuming it might be.

jeffrey
02-10-2008, 12:18 PM
Can anybody tell me what to do about my old tenants possesions?
Have you tried using LZ search re 'Disposal of Uncollected Goods'?

stavros1
22-10-2008, 10:14 AM
Please could somone advise on the best course of action here?
A flat has not been lived in for over two months, the landlord has not received any rent for 7 months. Yesterday he entered the property (rightly or wrongly but he did it anyway!) all the tenant possessions have been left behind, literally everything, he has been advised the tenant is living abroad now. What is the best course of action with regard to his possessions? None of the contact numbers or emails for the tenant are being answered, no next of kin or family, people who said hes abroad dont have any contact details either. Landlord wishes to get rid of his possessions and re-let. What is the best thing to do in these siutations?
Thanks

mind the gap
22-10-2008, 10:26 AM
Please could somone advise on the best course of action here?
A flat has not been lived in for over two months, the landlord has not received any rent for 7 months. Yesterday he entered the property (rightly or wrongly but he did it anyway!) all the tenant possessions have been left behind, literally everything, he has been advised the tenant is living abroad now. What is the best course of action with regard to his possessions? None of the contact numbers or emails for the tenant are being answered, no next of kin or family, people who said hes abroad dont have any contact details either. Landlord wishes to get rid of his possessions and re-let. What is the best thing to do in these siutations?
Thanks

Assuming this tenant's contract was an AST, how long was it for (dates?), and how long had the tenant been living there before he left?

Did you take a deposit and protect it in a scheme?

Have you begun legal proceedings to get the tenant out - if so, how far have you got?

stavros1
22-10-2008, 10:47 AM
None of the above! Its a private landlord we are trying to advise and help. The tenancy is definately now periodic, he has done nothing in the way of serving any notices or papers. He in fact has done very little, has not had any rent paid for 7 months now and has finally woken up and realised he needs to take some action. The tenancy was pre-deposit registration and the landlord does have one month but that is it.
the tenant has basically vanished, yes he could be in prison, in hospital, anywhere, but any attempts track him down have failed.
do notices still have to be served. The landlord has basically done nothing up to now.

SALL
22-10-2008, 11:06 AM
Yeah notices have to be served.
You have 2 options.

1) Section 21 Notice - Two month notice, then court order by accelerated possession process (assuming you have written tenancy agreement).
2) Section 8 Notice - 2 Week notice -Then court order - there will be a hearing

If the landlord is positive that the tenant has been away for few months and will not be coming back, then maybe you can be a bit creative with the dates. (Use your imagination)

stavros1
22-10-2008, 11:08 AM
what about the legal position with regard to all his possessions in the flat? Seriously, everything is there including some pretty personal effects.
So even if we have reason to believe the tenancy has been abandoned, notice serviing still applies?
thanks for your help everyone, so far.

Telometer
22-10-2008, 14:49 PM
So even if we have reason to believe the tenancy has been abandoned, notice serviing still applies?

That's not what I was advised under similar circumstances - in respect of a Rent Act 1977 tenant, too - so a protected tenant rather than just an AST tenant. (Given the very significant financial implications of a Rent Act tenancy we did go to court for confirmation.)

Does your landlord's insurance permit you to insure a property that is unoccupied for a period of over 30 days? I doubt it... and under this basis I was informed that the tenant was failing in his duty to look after the property, so you could repossess it on the grounds that he had abandoned his tenancy. On the basis that rent has not been paid in many months, this is fairly compelling evidence that the property has been abandoned.

You could try giving the Council's tenancy relations officer a phone call; they're generally helpful.

I suggest however some paid legal advice.

As for the abandoned goods: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

clothespeg
22-10-2008, 19:52 PM
I am not a LL or LA, so am seeing this problem purely from a neutral point of view. Could the tenant be a missing person and have come to grief ? How do you really know he's living abroad ? Seems to be just hearsay from someone who can't give specific details. Why would he leave all possessions behind, especially "pretty personal" ones ? And no contacts or next of kin ?

Seems rather suspicious to me ! Has anyone thought of reporting this to the police ? They could check departure records and carry out other investigations.

Everyone is very concerned about the legalities of "evicting" him, but no-one is concerned about the possibility that he is no longer alive ? If something has gone wrong the question of eviction seem rather futile.

This is just speculation, of course ......... but ..... who knows ?
(Maybe I just have a wild imagination).

k300
22-10-2008, 22:24 PM
Serve a 24 hour inspection notice through the door, (giving the tenant a chance to refuse entry should he wish) then LL at least has entered legally.

Also issue Section 21 and Section 8, unfortunately a long process and the LL has to attend court. this recently happened to me.

Because I did everything by the book and the tenant never turned up at court(because they weren't in the house to receive the court summons) the judge gave a decision in my favour which allowed me to take posession of the property that day.

HP mum
28-10-2008, 14:13 PM
Change the locks, photo the rooms as they are, package up all the abandoned possessions, labelled, and put them somewhere safe out of the premises and re-rent the flat. Most asts have clause about being unoccupied for more than 30 days and this would be grounds for repossession. Onoccupied for 2 months and owing rent for 7 months, with only 1m deposit - seems a good moment to grasp possession of the place ! Do everything you can to locate said person and organise possessions to be sent to them - c.o.d.
And re-let the place asap... Times are tough and opportunties to re-let may disappear....
I'm sure some may disapprove of these words - but what is said tenant going to do standing on such flimsy ground.

oaktree
28-10-2008, 15:32 PM
I'm sure some may disapprove of these words - but what is said tenant going to do standing on such flimsy ground.

Oh, I don't know; lets start with illegal eviction & trespass. I know what you're getting at, and practicalities sometimes outweigh legalities, but if the tenant should suddenly turn up the landlord is scuppered if he hasn't followed the rules.

HP mum
29-10-2008, 20:18 PM
Funnily enough I had a tenant who 2 years ago left owing £2000+ in unpaid rent. He moved to the US, broke, and unable to return to the UK as I later discovered he had been in court for embezzling from his company. And he left everything in the property - from dirty socks to computer, divorce papers, photos etc. I used a US lawyer and communicated for 6 months chasing the £s but got nowhere. I advised again and again that he needed to collect possessions but had no response - other than he said his friend would collect the important things. The friend refused. I advised this and repeatedly sent emails advising I would dispose of the goods. I actually put them in my garage for 18months until I rented that property with full vacant possession and needed the space - and then the charity shops got all his possessions that could be sold by them. I just pushed the whole episode to one side. Then, just this morning, I got a letter from a solicitor saying that the said man was pursuing a legal claim for a motor accident and wanted to repay me the £s owed when he received this payment and that he wanted his possessions back !! After 2 years... I doubt I can be held liable for disposing of goods after 2 years, but I guess I will now have to take legal advice myself :(

JAC Wales
16-12-2008, 13:28 PM
Finally got some tenants from hell out last Tuesday, it took 8 months thanks to shelter and their constant stalling tactics and appeals, judge threw the final appeal out last Monday and the bailiffs handed the house back to us on the Tuesday, when we got in we found a Plasma tv sky+ pc etc etc. They had the council in the morning with a removal lorry to move all their belongings into storage.

The tenant turned up 5 mins after the bailiffs left, to cut a long story short he kicked off so the police turned up, we gave him some time to move the more valuable items from the house and arranged a time latter to allow him to remove the rest of the items, now after 4 wasted trips as he hasn’t turned up and 7 days latter we have a house full of their items which are starting to smell (the house wouldn’t be a miss on the life of grime sadly).

Where do we stand on removing the items as we want to start work asap, would prefer he moved it himself but were willing to bag it all up if it means we can get started, thanks James.

Moob
15-01-2009, 15:22 PM
Hi,

I had a tenant on a standard AST, which expired so I left it rolling monthly. We had a disagreement with the tenant so served the section 21 , giving two months notice. The tenant emailed saying 2 months wasn't required, and gave me one months notice by email.

The one month notice ended 10th Jan 2009, the tenant has left, did not take her furniture and has not handed in the keys owing about 15 days rent.She is not responding to emails, phone calls or texts.

Questions : What do I do with the tenant's furniture that has been left behind ? I've advised her by email and text that if it isn't moved immediately I'll have it removed at her cost ( she left one months rent as bond but hasn't claimed it).

tor
13-07-2009, 19:12 PM
Hi, this is my first post so apologies in advance if it is a bit muddled! Basically, the tenant left the property suddenly without giving notice. She had however paid her rent in full. That was a month ago and she still hasn't returned to collect some of her things (beds, toys etc). She wouldn't give a forwarding address but we have managed to acquire it and have contacted her. She has since been to collect some of her things and said she would be back but won't be tied to when. We have now moved her things to the garage and locked it. We don't know what to do next. Most of the things are in poor condition, but some of the furniture, and baby gear (highchairs etc) could be given to charity. What we don't want to happen is get rid of it all and then she will come back for it and kick up a big fuss. She has already made a massive fuss about us finding a home for her abandoned fishtank full of fish (she wants us to pay her for it!)
Also, although she had paid up to date with rent, she didn't give notice and also she has taken several items from the house that did not belong to her (double mattress, hoover etc).
I would love to know legally how long we need to store her items for? (It's been a month already) What sort of notice do we have to give? (have been communicating by text, but should we send a letter now we have an address?) We really want to clear the garage out so we can let new tenants move in and the garage is full to bursting with 'stuff'.
Sorry to waffle, but wanted to give the complete picture.
Any advice very welcome. Thanks:)

Fitch
13-07-2009, 19:23 PM
Did you have nothing in your agreement with the tenants with regards to this? about the only thing our agents did right was have it drawn into the initial agreement that once we gave notice to the ex tenants that they had left belongings we only had to give them 14 days notice before disposing of it

citydockland
13-07-2009, 19:33 PM
I sugest amending your tenancy agreements! Mine states...

The LL may remove, store, sell or otherwise dispose of any furniture or goods which the T refuses or fails to remove from the property within 30 days of the vacate date. The T shall be responsible for all reasonable costs which the LL mar incur. The LL shall be entitled to deduct such costs and any monies lawfully due to the LL from any realised from the disposal of such furniture or goods.

You should have explained to the T that until goods are removed you wil hold on to the deposit. (I alays tell T I will release the deposit by cheque so they MUST supply a forwarding address)

When goods are removed I will hand over the deposit. If not removed after 30 days I pass them to a charity shop charge a handleing fee for my time removing gods & driving them to charity shop &/or take goods to ocal dump & charge the same handleing fee from there deposit

I make shure I ake pictures of all rooms with goods still in them so they can be compared to the before they moved in pictures to help with any disputes. It also stops them saying they left an original Mona Lisa HA HA!

Hope that helps?

Marc

tor
13-07-2009, 19:49 PM
Thanks for such speedy replies! No we didn't have it in the agreement but definetly will do in future!!! Have looked at the link on this site about uncollected goods, but not really sure where we stand re being owed money as rent was paid, but some of our goods have been taken!?

theartfullodger
13-07-2009, 19:58 PM
some of our goods have been taken!?

Sounds like theft to me...

Entirely different and unrelated to rent/deposit/stuff left... but talk to ex-tenant first if possible as there may be a simple misunderstanding...

Cheers!

Lodger

Kelnat
21-07-2009, 14:49 PM
Hi. I have a lodger who has some personal furniture stored in my garage.
I have just given the lodger one months notice. I know she is going to withhold her Rent.
I have a small deposit but I know there will be carpet cleaning & the room will need repainting so if I offset deposit from rent will have to pay for damages from my own pocket.
Can I legally refuse to return her furniture until she pays her outstanding rent?
Many thanks.

citizenz
05-08-2009, 09:39 AM
My tenant said verbally she was moving but has left a few bags of clothes behind and keeps saying she is coming to collect them.

I have been advised to change the locks, but I am not satisfied she has left. I do not wanted to clean the place up only to find she insists the tenancy has not yet ended.

At the moment it is not fit for habitation. I am sure she would like it cleaned and her damage repaired at my expense.

How long before I can relet? She told the agent verbally she was moving out. Is that good enough?

mind the gap
05-08-2009, 10:17 AM
At the moment it is not fit for habitation. I am sure she would like it cleaned and her damage repaired at my expense.
If you have a detailed check-in inventory showing that the place was spotless and in excellent repair when she moved in, why can you not claim the cleaning and repair costs from her deposit?




How long before I can relet? She told the agent verbally she was moving out. Is that good enough? No, it's not enough. Tread carefully. Has she returned keys, put anything in writing? If not, you will have to follow te due process (notice requiring possession, etc) - you cannot just go in and reclaim possession.

sjcollett
05-08-2009, 19:49 PM
Has she returned the keys? if not - get her to. if she's being difficult you could arrange to meet her and when you do get her to sign a note on x date she has moved out.I am confused by what your agents are doing - shouldn;t they be chasing - and didn't she give one month's notice? Kick them into action!

sherry
25-08-2009, 07:22 AM
Hi all, I am back here for your valuable and much appreciated advice.

Well, if you have read my other posts, you will know that I have recently had tennants from hell.

I had to issue a section 21 notice, due to roudy tennants that were and have, basically caused damage to my property. After visiting this site, I realised that with only a couple of months to go before the end of the T agreement, this was really the best and only thing I could do, in the hope that the Tennants would be gone on that day and not cause me lengthy eviction court cases.


I have been visiting the property, several weeks before the end of the section 21 notice was due to expire, to try and arrange for the keys to be handed in and on every visit, there has been no one there. When you knock the door, it always sounded hollow, as if no one had been there for a while, you couldn't see in because of the net curtains. I have also left several letters and telephone messages but have had no reply from tennants.

Anyway, I visited on the leaving date, expecting to see removal vans but there was no one there. Because I suspected that no one had been there for a while, I knocked the neighbours doors to ask if they had recently seen anyone at the property. Two of the neighbours said that they had not seen anyone for around 2 weeks. I left it until the next day. I visited in the morning, still no one there. I went back later that day and found one of the tennants was there, clearing his stuff. I then took the key off him and later that day had the locks changed. Can anyone advise, if this was this the right thing to do?

The problem is now, the tennants have left furniture and belongings, what should I do with them? as they have left no forwarding addresses and have not contacted me despite my several calls/letters Was I right to change the lock? As one of the tennants turns out to be bit of a nutter, I don't want him coming back saying that I have illegally evicted him and have destroyed his property! Should I put his belongings in storage? and if so, how long should I have to do this for?

Anyway, a week later, after changing the lock, there was a break in at the property, I don't know if it was one of the Tennants or even if any of the Tennants things were missing, but the only thing I did notice missing, was a pile of post that was near the front door.

I have reported the incident to the police and they are looking into the matter, but they could not offer any advice, as to what to do with their belongings, nor could they offer any advice with regards to my previous post regarding the tree issue.

Please anyone, advise.

Thank you

jta
25-08-2009, 07:32 AM
I think you have done exactly the right thing, you have accepted a surrender by taking the keys.
For the property left behind do a search for 'abandonment' and read a few of the posts there.
It does sound as if it was the ex tenants that broke in for their mail, why not block up the letterbox, for now, so no more can be posted through. Stick a little notice on the door to the postie that 'xxxxx has gone away, please return all mail to sender'.

Tree? what tree?

jta
25-08-2009, 07:37 AM
Ah! I saw the bit about the trees, I can't really offer anything useful there except, do you know anyone with a woodburner fire? If you do then that's your answer. Winter is a'coming. :D

sherry
25-08-2009, 08:18 AM
I think you have done exactly the right thing, you have accepted a surrender by taking the keys.
For the property left behind do a search for 'abandonment' and read a few of the posts there.
It does sound as if it was the ex tenants that broke in for their mail, why not block up the letterbox, for now, so no more can be posted through. Stick a little notice on the door to the postie that 'xxxxx has gone away, please return all mail to sender'.

Tree? what tree?

Hi jta, thank you for your response..there were 3 tennants, so by taking the keys off one of the tennants, I hope that I am in the right to have changed the locks. Seeing as I have had no response to visits, calls or letters, I hope that I am.

I have also visited the property each day for around a week and it is clear, that no one has been back....up until the break in that is.

I suppose, I have no right to point the blame at the tennants, as I don't even know if any of their property is missing. Like you, I am assuming, but it might not have been one of them. I like the idea of blocking the letter box and putting up a note, but fear that might draw attention to the property being empty and attract others breaking in to see what is in the house.

As for the trees, that is a different story, which you will find in my posts.

Thanks again for reply...any advice appreciated.

jeffrey
22-09-2009, 10:18 AM
distraint of goods for rent arrears is no longer legal.
Just to clarify: it is still lawful.
If Chapter 2 of Part 3 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 [s.71-s.87] is ever brought into force, it would abolish common-law distraint. For commercial premises only, there would be a statutory power over a debtor's goods: called CRAR (Commercial Rent Arrears Recovery).

See http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&title=Tribunals+Courts+and+Enforcement+Act&Year=2007&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&TYPE=QS&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=3388262&ActiveTextDocId=3388351&filesize=37837

tracyandlen
25-09-2009, 11:37 AM
Hi i hope someone can help and advise us. We have served a tenant with notice to quit S21 which expires 30 october but we have not seen him or had any contact from him since 17th july, he has not been to the property during this time but he has property in the room please can you advise us what rights we have as up till now he has been treated like the victim and we as the nasty landlords.
We are not nasty people and we didnt intend to be landlords. It started with allowing our son to stay in the house (as it was not selling as quick as we would like) he asked if a friend could stay for 2 weeks and we agreed as he had no where else, our son moved into a flat but the friend stayed and refused to move.
We will never make the mistake of helping someone out again, which is a shame as we are caring people but once bitten...............

Paul Gibbs
25-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Assuming that: -

1. T is an assured shorthold tenant
2. T paid no deposit, or if he did it is protected
3. the section 21 notice is valid, and has been validly served

You can commence court proceedings for possession once the s21 notice has expired. I assume there is no written tenancy agreement, and therefore you cannot use the accelerated possession procedure.

If T had not left any property at all, then you may have an argument that he has vacated in response to the notice, and you can re-enter and change the locks. Because he has left property you really should be careful and take court action.

Is T paying rent, or liable to pay any rent?

tracyandlen
25-09-2009, 13:33 PM
Thanks for replying paul
He has not paid any deposit, rent or bills for the property
He has no written contract (as we THOUGHT we were doing him a favour)
So from what you have said we have no choice then to wait for the notice to take its course via the courts before we can continue with the sale of the house?
Thanks again

jeffrey
25-09-2009, 14:12 PM
Thanks for replying paul
He has not paid any deposit, rent or bills for the property
He has no written contract (as we THOUGHT we were doing him a favour)
So from what you have said we have no choice then to wait for the notice to take its course via the courts before we can continue with the sale of the house?
Thanks again
No. You can sell it at once.

PaulF
25-09-2009, 14:12 PM
If no rent has been paid (not to be confused with a deposit) to you then you have not created a tenancy, and I suggest you don't accept any rent payments. Paul Gibbs (or Jeffrey Shaw) might come back on this as a S.21 Notice Seeking Possession is only valid if a tenancy is in place. You should instruct a specialist solicitor to evict the person as an illegal occupant.

jeffrey
25-09-2009, 14:17 PM
If no rent has been paid (not to be confused with a deposit) to you then you have not created a tenancy, and I suggest you don't accept any rent payments. Paul Gibbs (or Jeffrey Shaw) might come back on this as a S.21 Notice Seeking Possession is only valid if a tenancy is in place. You should instruct a specialist solicitor to evict the person as an illegal occupant.
The first bit is not quite so; a tenancy can exist whether or not rent is paid (or, indeed, payable). The absence of rent obligations means that it's not an AST/SAT under the Housing Act 1988. So the occupier can use- at best- only the Protection from Eviction Act 1977.

tracyandlen
25-09-2009, 15:34 PM
Thanks to all
Just found out through a friend of a friend that He (the 'tenant') has been advised by the C.A.B that we cannot evict him without going through court proceedings and that if he leaves property in the room he has rights, and as the property owner we have none, I think that is wrong.

dominic
25-09-2009, 15:45 PM
The first bit is not quite so; a tenancy can exist whether or not rent is paid (or, indeed, payable). The absence of rent obligations means that it's not an AST/SAT under the Housing Act 1988. So the occupier can use- at best- only the Protection from Eviction Act 1977.

The key on these facts as to whether a tenancy has been created is whether rent was agreed to be paid, and whether this can be proven, which would be quite easy, in my view.

The requirements for a tenancy are found under Street v Mountford in that parties must have agreed to let the property:

a. for a definite term;
b. at a rent; and
c. entitling T to exclusive possession.

tracyandlen
25-09-2009, 18:54 PM
Hi, Thanks for your help
just to make clear

There has been no terms agreed between us in regards of a tenancy, it was a verble agreement that he could stay with our son.

No money has changed hands only an agreement between him and my son towards bills, he has told c.a.b that he HAS paid rent and bills with cash, (NOT TRUE) but again they took his side and WE have to prove that he hasnt, he on the other hand does not have to prove he has.:mad:

He has the use of 1 room in a 5 bed house.

John J
25-09-2009, 19:12 PM
In my (very) inexpert view he's a guest who's outstayed his welcome. I don't know what rights a guest has, I'm sure the experts here will advise.

Re: C.A.B., I've had dealings with my local C.A.B. in the past. This was nothing to do with property but Sale of Goods. C.A.B. completely took the side of the complainant without getting the full facts. The complainant was in the wrong, but the incident really worried me - I thought I was going to be hung out to dry by the local trading standards office. I'm sure that C.A.B. do very good work, but after that experience I've had little or no confidence in them.

As Paul_f suggests, a solicitor who specialises in such matters is the way to go.

Good luck!

John

mind the gap
25-09-2009, 19:26 PM
Hi, Thanks for your help
just to make clear

There has been no terms agreed between us in regards of a tenancy, it was a verble agreement that he could stay with our son.

No money has changed hands only an agreement between him and my son towards bills, he has told c.a.b that he HAS paid rent and bills with cash, (NOT TRUE) but again they took his side and WE have to prove that he hasnt, he on the other hand does not have to prove he has.:mad:
.

That is impossible. I think CAB have got it wrong on this occasion.

tracyandlen
25-09-2009, 19:46 PM
Thanks im glad im not the only one who thinks the c.a.b are wrong i will be taking them off my christmas card list.
I am soooo glad i finally found this forum it has been great advice and we shall get on to our legal team and get some help
and knowing that we are paying them they should be on our side :)!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to eveyone
Tracy (a very disillusioned good samaritan)

tracyandlen
29-09-2009, 13:21 PM
Hi all


We have issued a notice to quit to the tenant which runs out 31st october, but we have not seen or heard of tenant since the middle of july. Can someone answer the following please
Can we go put up an abandoment notice?
What happens once the 7 days on the notice is up?
What do we do with his property?

Thanks in advance

quarterday
29-09-2009, 13:56 PM
If you are absolutely certain no-one is residing in the property, on the expiry of the notice to quit you can go in; even though the conventional wisdom is that you need a court order

jeffrey
29-09-2009, 16:42 PM
Also to Jeffrey you said we could sell it.
Yes, you can- but, as yet, not with vacant possession.

Lindylou
30-10-2009, 00:45 AM
I had a friend move into our vacant annex as an emergency. He was leaving his wife for hopefully a short time only. We charged no deposit and a cheap rent as the place was not in great shape. He became very depressed and left November 2008 after only a few months. Disapeared and uncontactable.

It was good to know he was back with his wife to sort out their problems. Unfortunately when he left he just disappeared not letting us know the status of affairs and left loads of things behind. We had to assume he was not returning at all after 6 weeks and had to start renovating for re-rent.

During renovation we found many belongings which he took away with him eventually, and he paid us in full but no notice moneys. Days later I found some more personal possessions and put them in a box. I told him we had them and what they were, he asked me to keep hold of them for a while, which I was happy to do for him. Personal nick nacks like old watches, previous wedding bands, spectacles and some things of his late father. There were also some domestic items such as cheap PC desk and crockery and pans which he said we could keep for our next occupant.

In September this year he took his own life and there is much animosity between his mother and widow, and now me!!! I passed the box of keepsakes to his mother rather than be in touch with his widow whom I know disliked me. She is now accusing me of giving his possessions away amongst other things and is threatening legal action.

I have arranged for her to have the domestic gear but she refuses to collect it until I get the box of trinkets from his mother as she demands to pick them all up at the same time. His mother will not give them to her at this time as they are mainly her late husbands memory items.

My question is this: Those domestic items were left in my home for 9 months as a gift, I would have been within my rights to throw them all out would I not? The box of trinkets and sentimental items were also long overdue to be picked up too. As far as I can see, by law I was holding them for him but he didn't seem to want them back even though I was in contact with him over the few months before he passed over. He never once asked to come and get them even though I reminded him I had them.

I would like to tell her that as the box was on my premises for so long and they had both failed to collect it then legally she doesn't have a footing! I did the wrong thing by taking the easy option and giving it to the recently deceased mother I suppose.

Thanks if anyone can shed some light on what is turning into a nightmare.:confused:

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 13:57 PM
Hi could anyone please tell us what we do now, as the two months notice to quit expires today and we are unsure what we do next.
The tenant has not been seen or heard from since early July, he still has a set of keys and some of his belongings are still in the property.
Thanks

mind the gap
31-10-2009, 14:14 PM
Hi could anyone please tell us what we do now, as the two months notice to quit expires today and we are unsure what we do next.
The tenant has not been seen or heard from since early July, he still has a set of keys and some of his belongings are still in the property.
Thanks

Unless you have (or could obtain) something in writing from the tenant to confirm he has given up the tenancy, then the safest policy is to apply for a court order and only enter the property, change locks, etc., when you are legally granted possession. Otherwise, he could just come back and claim he has been illegally evicted. Stranger things happen.

When you have possession, there is a process you must follow re disposal of his goods : search 'abandoned goods' on this forum to read about it. Here's one :
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=201&highlight=abandoned+goods

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 14:23 PM
Thank You but there is a small difference, the tenant only rented one room, so we have always had access to the rest of the property.

tom999
31-10-2009, 14:32 PM
The question on abandonment (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=22699) has already been asked.

Is this the same 'tenant' as in the 'where do we stand (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=22629)' thread?

If so, does the 'tenant' have exclusive possession of the one room, i.e. is the room lockable? Can access to the landlord be denied?

Does the landlord live at the property as their main residence?

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 14:38 PM
yes the door was lockable, but since the first break in about 4 weeks ago the door was forced and has not been repaired.

tom999
31-10-2009, 14:50 PM
It's likely that a tenancy was created, so the only 'safe' way to gain possession is by way of a court order or to get previous 'tenant' to surrender tenancy in writing.

If you are concerned about security, then place a notice of abandonment at the front door and inform Police. More info. here (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/legal/abandonment.htm) (as has already been given).

Note: It may have been better to continue the other thread, to give others a bit of background info.

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 14:59 PM
Thanks
We were told by a solicitor (not ours) that we had to wait untill after notice to quit expired before placing an abandoment notice, (which we had kindly recieved from this forum). We are sorry for asking the same questions as before but as we keep getting different answers we are confused

tom999
31-10-2009, 15:09 PM
The tenant has not been seen or heard from since early July, he still has a set of keys and some of his belongings are still in the property.Send a letter (keep a copy and poof of postage) to the 'tenant' at the property address, stating that his belongings will be disposed of unless he claims them within the next 4 weeks.

Many accidental landlords can face the predicament you are currently in. Understandable that it can be stressful time. If there is a 'next time', learn how to create a proper tenancy first, before rushing in. Hope it works out for you.

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 15:20 PM
Thanks
As he has not been at the house since july do we still send letter????

Also thanks to this tennant never again will we rent, which is a shame for our other friends and family in need. As the saying goes once bitten dont go near the dog again (i changed it a bit ha ha )

Thanks again

tom999
31-10-2009, 15:31 PM
As he has not been at the house since july do we still send letter????Yes. Keep proof of the letter and postage - to prove you have attempted to offer possessions back to 'tenant'.


As the saying goes once bitten dont go near the dog again (i changed it a bit ha ha )Once bitten:

Give the dog a biscuit! (i.e. learn to work with the dog and learn from your mistakes), or
Run a mile. :eek:


In your case, I expect option 2 applies!

tracyandlen
31-10-2009, 15:41 PM
Sorry tom just to make sure we have got it right, We send a letter via the post, keeping proof of postage, place a letter of abandonment on the front door for 4 weeks, ok but what happens after the 4 weeks please

tom999
31-10-2009, 15:57 PM
Assuming a valid notice (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/pdf/servingS21.pdf) has been served and has expired, apply to court for a possession order (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/grounds_for_possession.htm), which will usually take 4-6 weeks. Once you have a court order, instruct court bailiffs (approx. 2-4 weeks). Bailiffs will attempt to gain possession of your property.

Search this forum for "eviction" and "possession"

If you're not sure about any of this, seek specialist legal advice.

jeffrey
01-11-2009, 22:53 PM
As he has not been at the house since July
How do you know?

sophb
06-11-2009, 15:54 PM
We have a tenant who gave notice and wanted to leave at the end of October. On 30th October he asked to stay until 02 November and we said that was OK as long as left by 6pm. We made an appointment to collect the key at 6pm on Monday, but on arrival found the tenant missing. When we called him he said the keys were in his flat and authorised us to take them. The flat was still full of all his furniture etc but he promised to collect it on Tuesday pm. On Tuesday he said that he would come on Wednesday and today he is saying Saturday.

Can we remove his stuff bearing in mind he has given us the keys? Do we need to store it, and if so who pays. Do we need to give him any notice of removal of the stuff?

Anybody with any experience, please let me know.


Thanks

jeffrey
17-11-2009, 14:46 PM
1. The Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 replaces an earlier (1952) scheme. It applies only to E&W and NI (not Scotland).

2. For these purposes, disregard s.1-s.11. They chiefly deal with conversion/trespass re goods and circumstances such as not collecting the shoes which you left for the cobbler to repair!

3. Focus on s.12, s.13, and Act's Schedule. These deal with goods left with someone else when the owner of the goods does a flit.

4. The Act uses the technical terms BAILEE and BAILOR. The former is the person in possession/control of the goods; the latter is the owner of the goods. Let's call them L and T, for convenience.

5. Section 12 and Part I of Schedule apply, for L&T purposes, if:
a. T is in breach of obligation to take delivery of goods; or
b. L cannot trace or contact T to impose such obligation.

6. If L's duty as custodian of goods has ended, he can give Notice to T in writing (specifying L's name/address, location of goods, that goods are available for collection, and amount owed by T). If by post, Notice is sent to T's last known address.

7. If L serves Notice but T does not reply (or L cannot serve Notice, after taking reasonable steps to locate T), and L is reasonably satisfied that T owns them, L is entitled to sell them under the Act's procedures. L owes T the sale proceeds less:
a. costs of sale; and
b. whatever T owes L (to set-off).

8. L can ask a Court to authorise sale terms, under s.13, but this is not necessary unless:
a. L wishes to have Court Order's protection against T; or
b. there is a subsisting L-T dispute which prevents L exercising power of sale otherwise.

9. To sell them, L must serve another Notice on T- Part II of the Schedule- on same lines as in 6 above but, this time, by Rec. Del. L must give T sufficient advance warning of date of sale so that T has reasonable chance to take delivery (at least three months, if T owes money to L which will be set-off against sale proceeds).

Beeber
03-02-2010, 18:25 PM
A friend has a lodger who owed rent who flitted without serving notice, hasn't returned the keys, won't give a forwarding address.

The lodger wants to return to the property to collect a few things left behind in their hurried departure but the landlord prefers to store them offsite for collection (they have failed to show up on a previous occasion and will probably bring family members with them). The locks have been changed.

I'm aware that the landlord has an obligation to store them and can charge the lodger the transportation and storage goods.

1. Is the landlord obliged to give them access to the off-site storage if the lodger refuses to pay upfront for the storage/transport charges?

2. How can the landlord protect themselves against bogus charges of damaged or missing items?

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/nm/wales/your_world/consumer_affairs/keeping_lost_found_and_uncollected_goods.htm

mind the gap
03-02-2010, 18:41 PM
Not sure about your first question but surely the answer to the second one is that a list of the stored items made as you put them into storage (ideally signed by an independent witness if not the T) should suffice?

T would have to prove the existence and condition of any item allegedly pinched/damaged by you, in any case, which I bet they couldn't, if they were trying it on.

There was a thread awhile ago about something quite valuable which allegedly disappeared while under LL's care and I think the general consensus was that LL was not liable.

phil40
13-02-2010, 05:46 AM
A two month section 21 notice is served within the fixed shorthold term to expire after the last day of the tenancy. The tenant has not been seen at the property for 8 weeks but has some small items of furniture and some books at the premises. He owes three months rent.
If he is not at the premises on the day the notice takes effect can I change the locks or do I still need a court order?

PaulF
13-02-2010, 08:18 AM
You will still need a court order if your tenant has not returned the keys, or has contacted you to say they will be vacating on that day and arranged to meet you there.

Preston
13-02-2010, 09:14 AM
You will still need a court order if your tenant has not returned the keys, or has contacted you to say they will be vacating on that day and arranged to meet you there.

Not necessarily.

In order to be an assured (or assured shorthold) tenant it is necessary to occupy the premises as an only or principal home. The distinction between only and principal in the 1988 Act (and the various case law arising from this) makes it clear that it is quite possible to have more than one home but, by definition, only one of them can be the principal home.

An assured tenant who ceases to occupy the premises as his or her principal home ceases to be assured and becomes an ordinary or “bare” contractual tenant. The bare contractual tenancy will continue until it is ended, normally by the passage of time (if it is a fixed term tenancy) by the service of notice or by surrender. Even though someone ceases to reside in a property, it does not mean that they have given up possession. Giving up possession would require a desire to end the tenancy and to hand possession back to the landlord (usually in one of the ways I have just described).

So, in summary, if someone no longer resides at a property they may still have possession of it. For this reason, it is best to analyse the situation in two stages. Firstly, do they live there now? Secondly, have they shown an intention to give up possession?

It is this distinction which means that very often the safest thing to do when a tenant appears to have left the property is to issue a notice to quit to determine the bare contractual tenancy and only then to enter into possession or, if there is still doubt as to the tenant’s intentions, apply for a court order.

Only when you are sure that the tenant not only has ceased to reside but also has shown a clear intention to give up possession is it safe to enter into possession without a court order. By doing so, you would normally be accepting the tenant’s offer of a surrender.

The evidence a court will look at is fairly common sense. It would include:
a) What has the tenant said about their intentions?
b) Has the tenant removed their possessions?
c) Is the tenant still paying the rent?
d) Is there evidence that the tenant is living somewhere else (e.g. from neighbours).
e) Where does the tenant’s mail go to and which address has the tenant given to other people or organisations as a contact point?

The returning of keys is not necessarily conclusive, but it would in my experience be given very considerable weight by the courts. In other words, if the tenant has handed back the keys there would be a very strong presumption in favour of an intention to give up possession.

On the other hand, if the property is empty but the tenant has not returned the keys and continues to pay the rent, there would be a strong presumption that there has been no intention to give up possession. It may be, however, that the tenant has ceased to occupy the premises as their principal home.

So, in this case the OP needs to assess what evidence there is that the tenant a) no longer lives at the property as a principal home and b) has intended to give up possession. It is not possible to make the judgement at this distance, but if the tenant has removed the majority of their belongings, the neighbours have not seen them for 8 weeks, the rent has not been paid and the landlord has received no contact from them, then there is at the very least a case building up for both a and b.

The safest route to take would be to issue a notice to quit and at the same time commence possession proceedings following expiry of the section 21. Reassess the situation after the NTQ has expired to see if there is more evidence of a or b. If the situation is still unclear, continue with the possession proceedings already commenced (assuming, of course, that they have not by now been concluded).

The more risky route is, of course, to conclude that you already have enough evidence of (b) and to enter into possession but if the evidence is clear then this is a perfectly legitimate and sensible thing to do.

Do you have an experienced lawyer advising you?

toppers
22-02-2010, 16:29 PM
What is the legal position over tenants belongings. I have just evicted a tenant under a repossession order. I gave him an opportunity to remove his stuff but he has left a pile of things behind. (double bed, armchair, television, tools kitchen stuff) Do I have to look after it. Does the clock start ticking from the original contract termination date (section 21) or from the date I finally got rid of him.

dollymays
31-03-2010, 18:14 PM
I'm acting on behalf of my disabled 90yr old father who wishes to move back into his own home since he's been asked to leave his deceased partner's home, where I gather he has been living "under license". He has been renting out his own property to a tenant under what appears to be a shorthold tenancy without a written agreement - just a verbal agreement. The tenant has been paying the same less than mkt value rent for approx 3yrs, allowed the property to fall into disrepair, so by default has rolled over to a statutory periodic tenancy? is this the correct term?
The tenant has been given a section 21(4)a notice, issued 01/02/2010, expiry date 31/03/2010.
The tenant phoned last week to say she has nowhere to go and I received a letter today asking for a signed copy of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy.
I was going to apply to the court for accelerated possession, but I'm unsure if I'm able to do so without a written agreement? Can I go ahead and apply to the court for possession anyway? Do I need to inform the tenant of court proceedings once notice period expired? and do I need to give tenant a new agreement in the interim period?
All advice greatly appreciated, thanks

Snorkerz
31-03-2010, 18:27 PM
Did the tenancy start after 6/4/07? If so, was a deposit paid and protected?

You will need to know the exact date the tenancy started so we can advise if the s21 notice you have issued is correct.

There is no obligation to have a written AST - and no obligation to provide a copy to the tenant even if there was one - but you are right, the accelerated procedure will not be available to you.

dollymays
31-03-2010, 21:08 PM
Many thanks for your speedy response,
Unfortunately my Dad cannot remember the specific date as he has increasing dementia. I looked T up on electoral register where she is listed at the address since 2008 (a previous tenant is listed in 2007), however I'm unsure which month ER is updated, so its quite possible she began tenancy sometime in 2007.

I don't think deposit was protected, but my Dad said T paid 1months rent in advance to be returned after she leaves providing property in good order and rent paid up to date. This was a verbal arrangement. Unfortunately we cannot locate any of his bank statements prior last 6 months which would indicate start of tenancy as T pays by direct debit. Sorry I can't be more specific, meanwhile, I can only ask my father to give permission for the bank to divulge this information to me on his behalf which may take some time.

Hope this helps,
thanks again for you assistance.

Snorkerz
31-03-2010, 22:28 PM
You are definately going to have to get that permission from your poor dad, because as things stand at the moment you can not issue a valid s21 notice if you don't know the correct dates AND you may not be able to issue one because the deposit is not protected.

Having said all that, you may be able to get possession under s8 of the Housing Act, ground 13. This would be quicker but it would be up to the judge to decide if it is fair to grant it based on the tenants actions, not your fathers needs. A section 8 claim online (google PCOL) costs £100, which could end up being wasted money.

dollymays
01-04-2010, 13:10 PM
Hi again,
the date the tenant moved into property was 26/04/2008.

What is a protected deposit exactly, and is it law to have one set in place? The verbal agreement between my Dad and T was for her to pay just 1 months rent in advance and continue to pay rent up until day of vacating property whereby the advance rent payment would be returned to T subject to property being left in good order. Would this be classed as a deposit? I would have thought this was normal practice.

Your thoughts much appreciated.

Snorkerz
01-04-2010, 14:12 PM
If a months rent is being given back at the end of a tenancy, that sounds like a deposit to me (which is normal practice).

Unfortunately for you, any deposit taken after 6/4/2007 had to be protected wihin 14 days in one of 3 government approved schemes by law. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/index.htm

Unless the deposit is protected (and the deposit scheme full info given to the tenant), you can not issue a valid s21 notice. You also expose your father to being sued to get the deposit back PLUS a penalty of 3 x the value of the deposit.

HOWEVER - you can protect it right now at www.depositprotection.com for free, and the threat of legal action vanishes!

Unfortunately, your section 21 notice remains invalid. Once the deposit is protected, and the "prescribed information" (https://www.depositprotection.com/WebContent.ashx?docid=2be01c4a-1d75-45b7-8819-6cfe30d060dd) given to the tenant, you can issue a new s21 notice (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=Section21Notice.pdf).

From the information you have given, the notice must be served before 25th April and have an expiry date of "After 25th June 2010".

This does NOT mean your tenant has to go on the 25th June - just that that is the earliest you can apply to the court for possession. The possession process is likely to take a couple of months.

dollymays
01-04-2010, 17:17 PM
The tenant has now informed me, that she paid x2months rent as a deposit in cash on the day she moved in, but didn't get a receipt from my father.

My Dad reckons she owes at least x1months rent when her partner left in 2008, she admits there was a break in the standing orders of x2 months from Sep08-Nov08 but that she paid my Dad cash in December, but didn't get a receipt....

I've tried to register alleged deposit with depositprotection.com but unfortunately there is no "drop down" option on the automated form for registering deposits earlier than 2009.

What a mess, my Dad gave her tenancy in good faith because she was a friend of his deceased partner's daughter who recommended her. Unfortunately his generation take everyone on their word being good, because that is how they always conduct themselves. He doesn't understand the modern world.

westminster
01-04-2010, 17:28 PM
The tenant has now informed me, that she paid x2months rent as a deposit in cash on the day she moved in, but didn't get a receipt from my father.

Then the tenant cannot prove there ever was a deposit. It also seems a little implausible that your father, taking such a casual attitude to renting, would have asked for such an unusually large deposit, and that the tenant would not have asked for a receipt.

I would proceed on the assumption that there was no deposit.

westminster
01-04-2010, 17:34 PM
verbal agreement between my Dad and T was for her to pay just 1 months rent in advance and continue to pay rent up until day of vacating property whereby the advance rent payment would be returned to T subject to property being left in good order. Would this be classed as a deposit?

This makes no sense. Yes, it is common for rent to be paid a month in advance, but this doesn't mean that a month's rent is returned to the tenant at the end of the tenancy. I mean, let's say T has a six month contract starting 1st Jan 2010. He pays one month's rent on 1st Jan, and so on on the 1st of the month until the last rental payment on 1st June, and moves out on 30th June. There's no overpayment of rent, nothing due back to T.

mind the gap
01-04-2010, 17:42 PM
It would seem that neither T nor LL prove what was paid, or when. Perhaps LL should write off the rent arrears/T should accept there was no deposit as there is no proof of it, LL should issue s21 now and pursue T for any damages through the normal channels i.e. MCOL?

Not ideal but I don't see what else they can do.

westminster
01-04-2010, 17:46 PM
From the information you have given, the notice must be served before 25th April and have an expiry date of "After 25th June 2010".

As the tenant sounds tricky, and may perhaps claim that the tenancy began on a different date (dolly, how do you know it began on 26/4/08?) I wonder if it's worth adding a saving clause to the notice - ?

E.g.
After: 25th June 2010 or,
if this notice would otherwise be ineffective, after the date being the earliest date not earlier than two months after the date of service of this notice when shall expire a period of the assured shorthold tenancy.

westminster
01-04-2010, 17:52 PM
The tenant has been paying the same less than mkt value rent for approx 3yrs, allowed the property to fall into disrepair
Note that the landlord has statutory repairing obligations. See
http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-11-landlords-repairing-obligations.html

The tenant is responsible for minor things such as fixing a door handle which falls off, reporting disrepair to LL in good time, behaving in a generally tenant-like manner, and is liable for damage caused by accident or negligence, but he is not responsible for things such as fixing a leaky roof (unless T somehow caused the leak).

dollymays
01-04-2010, 19:01 PM
As the tenant sounds tricky, and may perhaps claim that the tenancy began on a different date (dolly, how do you know it began on 26/4/08?) I wonder if it's worth adding a saving clause to the notice - ?

E.g.
After: 25th June 2010 or,
if this notice would otherwise be ineffective, after the date being the earliest date not earlier than two months after the date of service of this notice when shall expire a period of the assured shorthold tenancy.


Hi,
Thanks for all your responses everyone,

Tenant herself verbally told me tenancy began on 26/4/08, (her S/O clears around 2nd week of month on avg.) meanwhile she has offered to fax me copy of her bank statement showing 1st standing order for rent paid to my Dad which she inadvertently suggested was in June 08!

dollymays
01-04-2010, 19:15 PM
Note that the landlord has statutory repairing obligations.

The tenant is responsible for minor things such as fixing a door handle which falls off, reporting disrepair to LL in good time, behaving in a generally tenant-like manner, and is liable for damage caused by accident or negligence, but he is not responsible for things such as fixing a leaky roof (unless T somehow caused the leak).

Thanks,
i've only seen outside of property, and noted broken window in porch, and damage to front door ie nailed down door knocker! broken door bell and broken glass in door, broken iron entrance gates, now tied up with string and padlocked and rubbish strewn around gardens and in car port. I hope its not indication of things to come...I've not had access to inside of property yet but annual heating service engineers reported trouble gaining access on dates pre-arranged, fortunately they have since attended and serviced boiler etc.

westminster
01-04-2010, 19:15 PM
enant herself verbally told me tenancy began on 26/4/08
Not hugely encouraging as all she has to do is claim it was another date and potentially put a spanner in the works, so I would advise using that saving clause and then waiting a while before issuing proceedings so that whatever the date's meant to be, the T can't argue she hasn't been given two months.


meanwhile she has offered to fax me copy of her bank statement showing 1st standing order for rent paid to my Dad which she inadvertently suggested was in June 08!
If you mean she moved in in April and didn't pay any rent until June, it makes it even less likely that she paid the equivalent of two months rent as deposit, doesn't it?

westminster
01-04-2010, 19:18 PM
I've not had access to inside of property yet but annual heating service engineers reported trouble gaining access on dates pre-arranged, fortunately they have since attended and serviced boiler etc.
Are you aware that LL has a legal obligation to provide an annual gas safety certificate to the tenant?

http://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/advice/gas_certificates.aspx

dollymays
01-04-2010, 19:29 PM
Are you aware that LL has a legal obligation to provide an annual gas safety certificate to the tenant?


Argghhh, No I wasn't, I've seen invoices my Dad (he's the LL) has paid and filed from Gas Service company, I imagine I can get a copy of certificate from them if they didn't leave one with T

Snorkerz
01-04-2010, 19:35 PM
Argghhh, No I wasn't, I've seen invoices my Dad (he's the LL) has paid and filed from Gas Service company, I imagine I can get a copy of certificate from them if they didn't leave one with T

A gas service is not the same as a "Landlords Gas Safety Certificate". It is possible it hasn't been done, so check those records. It's a big legal/safety issue - but if its not been done and you get it done ASAP you should be fine (fingers Xed)

dollymays
01-04-2010, 19:41 PM
If you mean she moved in in April and didn't pay any rent until June, it makes it even less likely that she paid the equivalent of two months rent as deposit, doesn't it?

Thats right, I agree, thats how it looks to me too, so eagerly awaiting her promise of the faxed bank statement. I won't hold my breath though, when she realises she's possibly tripped herself up.

cheers Dolly

dollymays
08-04-2010, 21:12 PM
Then the tenant cannot prove there ever was a deposit. It also seems a little implausible that your father, taking such a casual attitude to renting, would have asked for such an unusually large deposit, and that the tenant would not have asked for a receipt.

I would proceed on the assumption that there was no deposit.

Hi all,
I apologise in advance for my ignorance on this.....
How should my father (LL) proceed to evict tenant if there was no deposit? What type of Housing act notice of eviction should be issued?
Cheers

jeffrey
08-04-2010, 21:25 PM
It seems to be an AST that began in 2007. If L holds no deposit, or if the letting pre-dated 6 April 2007, L can serve T under s.21(4)(a).
Leaving aside the deposit problem, has T committed any known and provable breaches? If so, L can serve T under s.8 (on any grounds in Schedule 2).

westminster
08-04-2010, 22:35 PM
Hi all,
I apologise in advance for my ignorance on this.....
How should my father (LL) proceed to evict tenant if there was no deposit? What type of Housing act notice of eviction should be issued?
Cheers

A s.21(4)(a) notice as Jeffrey advises (and as you originally served) but add a saving clause as per my previous post, and leave it a (calendar) month after the expiry of the notice before starting possession proceedings, to allow for a later notice expiry date, given that the periods are unknown.



E.g.
After: 25th June 2010 or,
if this notice would otherwise be ineffective, after the date being the earliest date not earlier than two months after the date of service of this notice when shall expire a period of the assured shorthold tenancy.

sehughes
29-04-2010, 20:49 PM
My tenants has disappeared (possibly in prison). I have served notice to vacate, but how do I stand with the items that have been left in the property after this date, eg televisions beds furniture etc? can I remove them do I have to store them? Any advice would be brilliant.

mind the gap
29-04-2010, 20:52 PM
My tenants has disappeared (possibly in prison). I have served notice to vacate, but how do I stand with the items that have been left in the property after this date, eg televisions beds furniture etc? can I remove them do I have to store them? Any advice would be brilliant.

See : http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

Moderator1
07-05-2010, 00:30 AM
Several largely similar questions on separate threads have been merged into this thread (hence the repetitive nature of answers).

dollymays
29-09-2010, 13:04 PM
Hi all,
Some advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated. Tennant served Section 21 and Section 8 (property damage and 10months unpaid rent) expiry date 25 August 2010. Tennant overstayed S21 expiry date and finally vacated property on or around 16th or 17th September without advising LL of intent to leave (T‘s solicitor wrote to LL to advise T‘s intentions were to stay in property until 25 October). However, T did return keys on 17th September via a local estate agent who was due to visit property for a market appraisal on that day. Property interior has been cleared of T‘s belongings apart from some rubbish, however, Tenant has left some belongings in the garage, i.e. washing machine, TV, bed, kids bicycles etc.
Is this classed as abandonment?
If T doesn’t return to retrieve their belongings from garage is LL allowed to dispose of belongings? If so how long does LL have to wait?
Can LL apply for return of deposit from DPS under circumstances?
In the meantime can LL give builders access to the property to carry out essential repairs (broken entrance door, gas fire repair), prior to putting property up for sale?
NOTE: T left no forwarding address or contact details but LL does have T's solicitors address, but realises its unlikely unpaid rent will be recovered as T was claiming HB but chose not to pass any of it on to LL when living in property.
Thanks for any advice.
Dolly

westminster
29-09-2010, 14:25 PM
Tennant overstayed S21 expiry date and finally vacated property on or around 16th or 17th September without advising LL of intent to leave (T‘s solicitor wrote to LL to advise T‘s intentions were to stay in property until 25 October).
A s.21 is not a notice to quit; it does not end the tenancy nor oblige the tenant to leave at notice expiry.


Is this classed as abandonment?

'Abandonment' has no basis in law. (See this link (http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2010/07/04/urban-myth-–-you-don’t-need-to-get-a-possession-order-if-you-use-an-abandonment-notice/)). What it might be interpreted as is an implied offer to surrender. However, this is a very grey area. There is nothing to stop the tenant from returning and, if he finds the locks changed etc (it's possible he's retained one of the sets of keys, you never know), he could claim illegal eviction. You'd have a defence (i.e. you believed the T had ceased to reside) however, not only would it be expensive to defend a court claim, your defence could be undermined by the fact that you have it in writing from a solicitor that T intended to remain until 25th October - BTW did the wording of the solicitor's letter convey that this was a formal notice to quit?


T left no forwarding address or contact details but LL does have T's solicitors address.
So contact the solicitor and ask for confirmation of the situation, and you need to get it in writing.

I would also give the solicitor written notice that you would like to carry out repairs on such and such a date, and ask them to confirm that this is acceptable, etc.

And no, you can't just dispose of the tenant's belongings. See this link (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm).

dollymays
29-09-2010, 16:01 PM
BTW did the wording of the solicitor's letter convey that this was a formal notice to quit?

Thanks for reply and in response to your question:
Solicitor acknowledges by letter dated 24th August the following: “We note our Client was served with a notice (dated 16th June) seeking possession and is endeavouring to move out and in the steps of securing accommodation which will be available in two months time. Our Client will cooperate with LL requests to carry out repairs and will continue paying rent in the meantime. It would be in LL interests to wait for T to leave rather than starting court proceedings for eviction. Please confirm that LL will not take further action for two months upon which our Client will vacate the property anyway.”

LL didn't confirm either way, but did request in writing again via T's solicitor for T to give access to workmen to carry out essential maintenance and repairs and obtain further quotes. Again, All such visits were cancelled at last minute by T and no access given until keys left with Estate Agent on Sep 17th when property found to be empty. No explanation left with EA, just keys in envelope naming property address.

Rent schedules detailing 10 months unpaid rent were also sent to T solicitor, on several occasions so unsure why solicitor assumes T continues to pay rent.:(

It seems to me (without giving a specific date) T's Solicitor is implying T will be gone by 25th Oct?

LL requested in writing (proof of postage obtained) access for property repairs on two occasions in September, T's solicitor were emailed copies of both requests, but neither T or Sol have not responded on either occasion. As per advice, I will write to T's solicitor again requesting permission to carryout repairs. In the meantime main entrance door to house is locked but not secured as T broke glass panels (when she lost keys to regain entry so any other person could gain entry to house in the same way presumably). T changed locks (has left new lock keys), T refused to repair door herself, and I reiterate, nor allow requests for LL to undertake repair either. How many times should LL request permission to carryout essential repairs whilst in fear of committing an illegal eviction?

dollymays
29-09-2010, 18:20 PM
Thanks for your interest, LL is following advice and requesting written confirmation from T's Solicitor and hopes to get a reponse this time. Also hopeful that T will return for their belongings as only one set of keys was left with EA. Meanwhile property will have to remain open to the elements and would be squatters, theives, opportunists etc. but would like to know if LL has a duty of responsibility to stop others squatting should the T wish to return to the property and not surrender her tenancy?

dollymays
01-11-2010, 18:17 PM
So contact the solicitor and ask for confirmation of the situation, and you need to get it in writing.

I would also give the solicitor written notice that you would like to carry out repairs on such and such a date, and ask them to confirm that this is acceptable, etc.

And no, you can't just dispose of the tenant's belongings. See this link (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm).

Hello again, following up from previous link,
LL wrote to T's Solicitor but has not received any communication from them to date. LL also copied letter to T at rental property (T has either set up mail redirection or is still entering property to retrieve mail). LL now received undated letter (and no forwarding address) stating T left property 10/09/2010 and will not be returning. T does not say if she intends to retrieve her personal possesions which she left in the unlocked garage. T's Letter also states that T left just one set of keys with a 3rd party to be returned to LL (received), and that T does not have any other sets of keys to the property.
Can LL accept this undated letter (postmark reads 20/10/2020) as formal surrender of tenancy?
If so where does LL stand with respect to T's belongs now?
Also should LL still wait for confirmation from T's Solicitor that repairs can be carried out? (Sol not responding to emails either)
Note: LL in residential care home and Social Services putting pressure on LL to sell property ASAP as understandably, Social Services want payment for LL's care provision.
Thanks for any responses, Dolly (daughter of LL)

westminster
01-11-2010, 18:34 PM
Can LL accept this undated letter (postmark reads 20/10/2020) as formal surrender of tenancy?
Um, so why hasn't LL applied for possession yet, given that s.21 and s.8 notices were served and expired in AUGUST??????? LL could've had a possession order by now.

As for the letter, a 'formal surrender' is when both parties sign a Deed of Surrender. What the letter might be construed as is an offer to surrender.


Also should LL still wait for confirmation from T's Solicitor that repairs can be carried out? (Sol not responding to emails either)
Try the newfangled invention called the telephone.

dollymays
01-11-2010, 20:01 PM
Um, so why hasn't LL applied for possession yet, given that s.21 and s.8 notices were served and expired in AUGUST??????? LL could've had a possession order by now.
Because as noted in earlier thread, LL received letter dated 24/20/20 from Solicitor and took their letter in good faith “We note our Client was served with a notice (dated 16th June) seeking possession and is endeavouring to move out and in the steps of securing accommodation which will be available in two months time. Our Client will cooperate with LL requests to carry out repairs and will continue paying rent in the meantime. It would be in LL interests to wait for T to leave rather than starting court proceedings for eviction. Please confirm that LL will not take further action for two months upon which our Client will vacate the property anyway.”
Also LL needed to avoid expense of Courts as at the age of 91yrs his only income is state pension because T has not paid rent for 10months. LL has to put all his weekly pension towards his outstanding care costs whilst he is in residential care.

At 91, It is very difficult for LL to totally comprehend all of what is happening to his property but while he still has mental capacity, family can only assist him, we cannot act on his behalf, it remained his decision to accept T's Solicitors letter in good faith intonating that T would leave and pay rent owed and carry out repairs.

dollymays
01-11-2010, 20:15 PM
Try the newfangled invention called the telephone.

LL is in residential care and only has access to a payphone which he has difficulty using due to mobility and physical dexterity problems.

Of course I have repeatedly telephoned T's Solicitor's Office for months on my Dad's behalf but Receptionist repeatedly tells me Sol is not available so she takes messages to call me back but they are never returned. Hence communication by letter and email, which my Dad can dictate. At least that way he has a record of all his attempts at communication, albeit unanswered.

davidjohnbutton
02-11-2010, 08:36 AM
Putting in a complaint about the solicitors intransigence might be a way forward since most of them dont like their professional body knowing about their incompetence. Other way is to turn up at the solicitors office 5 mins before closing time and refuse to budge till its sorted - if police attend then leave so as not to cause breach of peace and repeat following day.

jeffrey
02-11-2010, 12:09 PM
Because as noted in earlier thread, LL received letter dated 24/20/20 from Solicitor.
Eh? Which month/year?

dollymays
02-11-2010, 22:12 PM
Eh? Which month/year?

Whoops - Well spotted - date should have read 24/08/2010.

westminster
02-11-2010, 22:29 PM
That happened to me. I just chucked everything out. As far as Im concerned, the tenant has no rights once rent is unpaid & damage is caused!!!
Regardless of the amount of exclamation marks used, you may one day discover that the tenant has some statutory rights.

dollymays
03-11-2010, 10:50 AM
Putting in a complaint about the solicitors intransigence might be a way forward since most of them dont like their professional body knowing about their incompetence. Other way is to turn up at the solicitors office 5 mins before closing time and refuse to budge till its sorted - if police attend then leave so as not to cause breach of peace and repeat following day.

Thanks for the advice, however I live an 80mile round journey from T's Solicitor's office with no direct transport link, so a visit not feasible at this moment, I shall Google professional body meanwhile.

dollymays
03-11-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm not clear at all on what I should do now. Please can I have some advice on how to proceed (lawfully) from this point.

As you can tell my ignorance in these matters is woeful and I apologise, I'm not a LL, don't purport to be, I'm just trying to assist a very elderly OAP LL act within the law and reclaim his property, keeping his costs to a minimum.

Thanks for all your advice

property mongrel
03-11-2010, 11:16 AM
The solicitors watchdog is the SRA. A neighbour solicitor of mine tells me that the SRA are worth having from a punters point of view as solicitors do not like the thought of being referred to them.

good luck

pm

jeffrey
03-11-2010, 13:44 PM
The solicitors watchdog is the SRA. A neighbour solicitor of mine tells me that the SRA are worth having from a punters point of view as solicitors do not like the thought of being referred to them.
No. The SRA does not now handle complaints [as from the beginning of October 2010].
Instead, go to Legal Ombudsman here: http://www.legalombudsman.org.uk/consumer/index.html

westminster
03-11-2010, 19:02 PM
I'm not clear at all on what I should do now. Please can I have some advice on how to proceed (lawfully) from this point.

Option 1: Apply to the court for possession.

Option 2: Treat letter from T (the one with the uncertain date) as an offer to surrender, and accept that offer by taking possession of property; then, cross fingers that T does not return and claim he has been illegally evicted, and hope that a court would agree that the letter, and the T apparently moving out despite leaving belongings behind, comprised an offer to surrender.

No-one on the forum can advise you to pursue option 2, as we don't know the full facts. Option 1 is the only 100% safe way to proceed.

dollymays
04-11-2010, 15:14 PM
Option 1: Apply to the court for possession.

Option 2: Treat letter from T (the one with the uncertain date) as an offer to surrender, and accept that offer by taking possession of property; then, cross fingers that T does not return and claim he has been illegally evicted, and hope that a court would agree that the letter, and the T apparently moving out despite leaving belongings behind, comprised an offer to surrender.

No-one on the forum can advise you to pursue option 2, as we don't know the full facts. Option 1 is the only 100% safe way to proceed.

Thank you - If I apply to the court for possession should I do so under S8 or S21?
Both were issued at the same time.

As I don't have a forwarding address for T, should I use property address or T's Solicitor's Address on the application?

westminster
05-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Thank you - If I apply to the court for possession should I do so under S8 or S21?
Both were issued at the same time.

As I don't have a forwarding address for T, should I use property address or T's Solicitor's Address on the application?
Use the rental property address.

I was going to say proceed under s.21 route as that's guaranteed, but I've just had a look at your previous thread. It seems there are added complications in that you don't have a copy of the tenancy agreement, and I don't know what evidence you'd have to provide of the tenancy - wait for others to advise.

Did you use the saving clause in the s.21(4)(a) as advised? Did you obtain proof of service of the notice(s)?

mikem
20-04-2011, 19:42 PM
We have a tenant who is on a 6 months short term lease.This woman as turned out to
be a nightmare, to the point that she was told by us that she would not be held to her
contract. This was based on advice from our letting agent.
Since taking up the tenancy she as had 2 attempts at suicide. Been arrested for assault
on her blind partner.Had the rent stopped because she said she was no longer staying there and she was still living there. She is on housing benefits. She as now been placed in temporary accommodation so social services can keep a better eye on her. The accommodation she is in is furnished so her possessions are still in out property. For which
we are now getting no rent. Her lease is up in mid June. What can we do to get the place
emptied of her possessions so we can repair any damage done and re let the place.
One thing is for sure no one on benefits will ever get into the property again. I know that
you do get good tenants on benefits but once bitten never again.

Snorkerz
20-04-2011, 19:58 PM
We have a tenant who is on a 6 months short term lease.This woman as turned out to
be a nightmare, to the point that she was told by us that she would not be held to her
contract. This was based on advice from our letting agent.
Since taking up the tenancy she as had 2 attempts at suicide. Been arrested for assault
on her blind partner.Had the rent stopped because she said she was no longer staying there and she was still living there. She is on housing benefits. She as now been placed in temporary accommodation so social services can keep a better eye on her. The accommodation she is in is furnished so her possessions are still in out property. For which
we are now getting no rent. Her lease is up in mid June. What can we do to get the place
emptied of her possessions so we can repair any damage done and re let the place.
One thing is for sure no one on benefits will ever get into the property again. I know that
you do get good tenants on benefits but once bitten never again.

Presuming the tenancy ends legitimately, you can search in the main site for what to do with goods abandoned by the tenant (would post a link but the site is playing up for me)

jjlandlord
20-04-2011, 20:10 PM
It's there: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/uncollected_goods.htm

midlandslandlord
20-04-2011, 20:20 PM
A barebones evaluation.

It's eviction + repossession by the sound of it.

Section 21 for the first possible date (June?) + whatever else you judge worth doing which might work sooner (Section 8?).

You also need to take care where you serve notices, I suspect - perhaps just serving at the property is the correct one here; others know better.

It sounds that you also need to take care to be "reasonable", as multiple suicide attempts plus temporary sheltered accommodation could be a strong plea for exceptional hardship in a Section 21 case (up to 28 days extension of possession date at judge discretion) or an argument against discretionary grounds for eviction.

Of course you also need to be aware that she could come out of sheltered accommodation at any minute and go straight back in.

Then it'll probably be "down to experience" or a Moneyclaim for recovery.

In realpolitik, you could try negotiating for an immediate surrender of the Tenancy, perhaps in return for a cash sum plus writing off the rent lost.

If it's going to be June plus a Court process (= potentially August or September before you get it back) it could easily be worth £500-£1000 plus writing off rent lost so far now to close down the loss; your costs from now to eviction, treating the unpaid rent so far as a sunk cost, could be £2000-£3000 on a rental of £400-£500 pcm.

You're up against her loss of "unintentionally homeless" status if she accepts an offer, if the Local Council policy is against you - choose your words carefully in conversations and letters.

ML

midlandslandlord
20-04-2011, 20:31 PM
PS

Audit your letting agents processes carefully - were the checks done (you should have the right to the full detail of the checks)?

You may have comeback.

ML

mikem
20-04-2011, 21:29 PM
Not sure if checks were done, would need to ask on that one. the suicide attempts were done purely as a means of
getting attention.She is known for trying it on before we even knew of her. With her medical condition it is quite
common amongst those with the same medical condition. In fairness to her she did say in passing that she suffered
from Bi polar condition. At the time I paid little attention as it had no meaning to me. If she has said Manic depression
I would have know straight away. The moral of the story is to check up if a prospective tenant says they suffer from
something, and take it from there.She is known by all who have to deal with her as a very awkward person to deal with.

Brb
20-04-2011, 21:45 PM
Any form of depression is a hard thing in life to live with for all in that person's life. It can be as damaging to a person's life as a serious physical illness.

That said, as private LLs you are a private business out to make profit and not a charity that offer support alongside assisting with housing.

I have a close family relation that is a manic depressive and one of my closest friends has bi-polar. The bi-polar I find harder to handle at times. I work with elderly with dementia and they're a doddle.

westminster
21-04-2011, 00:07 AM
We have a tenant who is on a 6 months short term lease.This woman as turned out to
be a nightmare, to the point that she was told by us that she would not be held to her
contract. This was based on advice from our letting agent.
Since taking up the tenancy she as had 2 attempts at suicide. Been arrested for assault
on her blind partner.Had the rent stopped because she said she was no longer staying there and she was still living there. She is on housing benefits. She as now been placed in temporary accommodation so social services can keep a better eye on her. The accommodation she is in is furnished so her possessions are still in out property. For which
we are now getting no rent. Her lease is up in mid June. What can we do to get the place
emptied of her possessions so we can repair any damage done and re let the place.
One thing is for sure no one on benefits will ever get into the property again. I know that
you do get good tenants on benefits but once bitten never again.
All that is relevant is what I have highlighted above in 'bold'.

You must serve notice on the T. A s.21(1)(b) notice giving T at least two months' notice and expiring after the fixed term ends. And a s.8 notice citing the grounds relating to unpaid rent (8, 10 & 11) and ground 14 (assuming the assault took place in or near the rental property):



The tenant or a person residing in or visiting the dwelling-house -
(a) has been guilty of conduct causing or likely to cause a nuisance or annoyance to a person residing, visiting or otherwise engaging in a lawful activity in the locality, or
(b) has been convicted of -
(i) using the dwelling-house or allowing it to be used for immoral or illegal purposes, or
(ii) an arrestable offence committed in, or in the locality of, the dwelling-house. [if T was convicted]
There is no ground to evict on the basis of T's suicide attempts or manic depression.

See http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-factsheets/factsheets/factsheet-8-claims-for-possession-the-section-8-notice.html

If there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that T has vacated for good, then arguably you could take possession immediately on the basis that T has made an implied offer to surrender, but this is a risky approach as you are exposed to the possibility that T may reappear and allege illegal eviction - in your case the risk may be considerable since T has apparently left all her possessions behind, hasn't expressly told you she has left or returned keys etc - i.e. the usual indicators of an implied offer to surrender.