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View Full Version : Serving Notice under s.21- what dates to show?



paulw
20-12-2005, 12:44 PM
i am issuing a section 21 today but want to make sure i have the dates right.

the 6 month tenancy agreement started on 1st May so ended on 30th October (correct?)

they have then went onto a periodic tenancy (monthly)which starts following the last day of the fixed term (1st November) so the last day of the periodic tenancy is the last day of every month, in this particular case will be February 28th.

Now the way i read the section 21, the date specified must be the last day of a period of tenancy. so does that mean my posession date is february 28th??? i was about to put 1st march but im confused now as surely 28th feb will only class january as being the only FULL clear months notice??

many thanks for help

paul

Poppy
20-12-2005, 13:19 PM
Your possession date is "after 28th February".

paulw
20-12-2005, 14:23 PM
thanks poppy....are you 100%?

ive downloaded a form off the net and it clearly states it must be ON the last day of a period of tenancy.

ive looked at previous threads with questions relating to this...everybody seems to have alternative views, and i cant find the actual answers to the questions.

PaulF
20-12-2005, 16:59 PM
The form you have downloaded is incorrect - change "on" for "after". I would be still worried that it doesn't contain all the correct information; you need a S.21 4(a) Notice and they are free. Just make sure you get a decent one.

paulw
20-12-2005, 21:10 PM
many thanks everyone.

the form i downloaded doesnt appear to be revision A of s21(4)..maybe they changed the 'on' to 'after'

charger
21-12-2005, 17:49 PM
could have been 31st if it'd expire in march, so the 28th february it's okay.
it's not february's fault, you know ?
good luck

paulw
13-01-2006, 16:18 PM
i issued a section 21 - after lots of advice i hope i done it correctly - a couple of weeks ago.

i posted (through the letter box) one copy by hand to the address with a witness and i also sent a copy by registered post. the postman didnt get an answer so he left a card and it was returned to the local depot. the tenants didnt collect it so it has just been returned to me.

what you suggest i do with this? keep it as evidence that i went down the registered post route or should i post it through their door?

Ericthelobster
13-01-2006, 18:14 PM
Well, zero point in posting it by hand as you've already done that once, haven't you? Might be worth hanging on to the evidence that you also tried sending it registered as well; shows that you've been doing it by the book and that the tenant's not playing ball (ie refusing to collect your letter).

If you know your tenant doesn't work on Saturdays (or any other specific day, come to that), maybe it would be worth trying another registered letter and hopefully he'll be in when postie knocks?!

P.Pilcher
13-01-2006, 19:26 PM
I am of the opinion that a witnessed delivery of the document to the property concerned is sufficient unless you have a clause in your AST agreement which specifies any other method. If I am wrong, I am sure a correction will appear from one of our board experts.

P.P.

paulw
02-02-2006, 12:59 PM
i am evicting a tenant and the section 21 notice expires in 3 weeks and i know she has been getting advice off the housing office about how to deal with the eviction ie wait for the baliff notice then she will get a council house.

but i received a phone call this morning from the councils environmental health dept saying she has complained to them about dampness and a sparking electrical socket. i have responded immeadiately in the past when she has approached me directly about problems with the flat so i am a bit concerned as to why she has went to environmental health. do you think she may have been advised to do this to either make me out to be a bad landlord to the courts or maybe to help get her out of the flat because of its 'bad condtion' and into a council house?

should i get her to sign something to say ive been round and inspected it and then arranged for the work to be carried out at a later date?

as far as the dampness goes, well i know its not the best of flats, it has no central heating but i have supplied decent electric radiators for every room and there is a good fire in the lounge. but last time i was in the place was freezing as she had the radiators locked away in cupboards so im not surprised the place is damp. also the window frames are getting a bit old, can i get away with just sealing any draughty ones with cling film temporarily as i am getting double glazing in a couple of months.

MK Landlord
02-02-2006, 13:05 PM
Write to her to say you understand there may be a problem at the propoerty, make it clear this is the first you've heard abouit it and tell her to contact you direct if there IS a problem so that you can deal with it. Copy the environmental health.

This is a) all you can do as a good landlord to rectify the problem and b) all you can do to SHOW you are being a good landlord!

islandgirl
02-02-2006, 15:19 PM
Our tenants stopped paying rent. Then one day we got a call from the environmental health officer saying the tenants had complained to him that the drain was blocked. This was the first we had heard about it. I explained the situation and said I would ring him back to let him know when we would do the unblocking. I asked how long we had and he said normally for drains 48 hrs. I called him back half an hour later to say that we would be there first thing but that the tenants were difficult and had said we could not go onto their property. I asked him to get their permission. He said he would. He also offered to come with us when we did the repair! We were glad we said yes to his kind offer as the tenants " had a go at us" ! They also made all sorts of untrue allegations about the drains. I got the env health officer to write a formal letter saying he rang us at 3pm and we fixed the problem at 9 the next morning. This was submitted to the court just in case they tried to say we were bad landlords! I also got witness statements from previous tenants saying there were no problems with the drains. Good luck!

attilathelandlord
04-02-2006, 13:51 PM
Do all of the suggested things above, but remember with a correctly served S21, all the "problems that need to be fixed" are just background noise. The judge must grant possession.

Worldlife
04-02-2006, 14:57 PM
Agree about the background noise!!!

In our recent case the tenant contacted evidence to try and show we were bad landlords and had not attended to work when requested. He asked if the tenant and guarantor if they had ever written to us about uncompleted repairs - and they had not!

We said we had 24 hour standby emergency service for plumbing, drainage, electrical and gas installations (insurance based schemes) and attended less urgent works as soon as we could.

Would expect the judges have plenty of experience in both tenants and landlords being somewhat economical with the truth !!!!!

paulw
06-02-2006, 16:41 PM
many thanks all.

i made several attempts to speak to my tenants over the weekend and eventually got in on sunday morning. the 'sparking electric socket' is the socket/switch for the electric cooker which her fella wired in himself and was fine beforehand - ive been out to buy a new socket today. the damp is actually condensation (im told these are commonly mixed up)...this is basically because of lack of heating in the flat. she told me she didnt use the electric radiators as they werent very good...but she later said they were expensive to run.

i will complete the repairs tommorow and send off a letter to the environmental health explaining the problem. im hoping if i explain that the property isnt ideal for a young family who cant afford to heat the place (note: she has a very expensive looking new flat screen cinema tv) then this might help her case for a council house!!

thanks again.

paulw
21-02-2006, 21:54 PM
i am just checking through my n5b forms before submitting to court.

i have always considered my tenant to be the female (the 100% housing benefit is all in her name) but her boyfriend also signed the original tenancy agreement. he disapeared over 6 months ago when the police had a warrant for his arrest, they searched the property several times, and they eventually gave in looking for him and told me he had moved on.

so, i issued the section 21 just in her name. unbelievably, i have just seen him today. i have called the police and they said they weren't persuing him anymore. would he have any rights to maintain possession as the section 21 didnt have him listed?

P.Pilcher
21-02-2006, 22:08 PM
Well, it all depends on the Judge, but if boyfriend is named on the tenancy agreement, he should also be named on the section 21 notice. After all, he has a right of residence in your property unless he either terminates his agreement this or a court terminates the tenancy agreement for him (and her)

IMHO you may have a problem.

P.P.

P.Pilcher
21-02-2006, 22:21 PM
Don't forget to let us know how you get on - and also check back here later as one of our experts may disagree with my opinion.

P.P.

PaulF
22-02-2006, 08:28 AM
All named tenants on the AST must be included on any S.21 Notice (or any other Notice for that matter!) otherwise the tenant can file a defence to the aciton of the landlord, and the judge would have to strike it out.

The judge just might give possession but don't count on it!

paulw
22-02-2006, 13:28 PM
i simply havent got time to issue another section21.

im going to have to approach the tenant and ask her for her copy of the section 21. i will then give her back another one with his name on it. i dont think she will question my actions. end of the day, she wants to be evicted just as much as i need her out.

i originally issued one by hand and one by recorded delivery which has been returned to me by royal mail. it means i will have to open this and put the new copy in. its not ideal but id like to think the judge will accept that it was returned to me so i opened it.

Worldlife
22-02-2006, 18:00 PM
i simply havent got time to issue another section21.

im going to have to approach the tenant and ask her for her copy of the section 21. i will then give her back another one with his name on it. i dont think she will question my actions. end of the day, she wants to be evicted just as much as i need her out.

i originally issued one by hand and one by recorded delivery which has been returned to me by royal mail. it means i will have to open this and put the new copy in. its not ideal but id like to think the judge will accept that it was returned to me so i opened it.

Seems rather dodgy to me if the notice has a certain date and then you subsequently amend that notice without amending the service date or initialling and dating the alterations. I'm wondering if it would also be desirable to get the tenant to acknowledge receipt of the amended notice and endorse the alterations. I would opt for a new notice but could the tenant argue confusion as either a result of the alterations or as to which of the notices were valid ones?

Thanks Paul f for the information here on the correct service - it's easier to serve the same notice on each of the joint tenants rather than preparing individual notices to each and find the individual notices are flawed!!!

paulw
28-02-2006, 21:32 PM
if there are two tenants on the ast, do you need two seperate sect21 notices with two proof of deliveries or can they both be on the same notice?

also, am i covered as i only addressed the envelope to one of them.

thanks

P.Pilcher
28-02-2006, 21:52 PM
I don't think that the judge will be too interested in an empty envelope! However the names of both tenants must be on the section 21 notice which should be delivered to them at the property concerned.

P.P.

Worldlife
01-03-2006, 08:55 AM
I've just opted for a notice to the two joint tenants but put in envelopes with the name of each of the individual tenant upon it.

Notice served by personal service and pushing under the front door of the flat concerned as the letterbox is a communal one for two flats.

I know there might be a case against this but the case for is that one tenant might receive the notice and leave. The remaining tenant might deny ever receiving or reading a S21 Notice!!!