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da_melonuk
02-04-2009, 23:03 PM
Hi,
We are moving out of a property on 26th April and have a few querys reguarding this :-

We are not 100% sure that the landlord will give us back our full deposit,
there is nothing wrong with the house at all, but by the way he words he emails about this, you wouldn't trust him, so as a precaution we have cancelled our last months rent, this is the same amount as our bond.

He has now sent us an email after 5 days threating us with court proceedings if we dont pay straight away, is this just a scary tactic to get us to pay and if we dont what could happen.

If we don't pay then our bond won't be returned to us at the end of the months, but we will be equal with money after that.

Also he refuse's to answer his phone when you call him to discuss things about the property, for instance, there is a major crack in the fuse box and the electrics in the out house that is next to the house are not earthed, he sent a electrican out at beginning of the year to do a safety check and he told us that these 2 things were totally unsafe and should be condemed, he then reported this back to him, but as yet the landlord has done nothing about these issues, is this a breach of his contract as a landlord ?

sherifffatman
02-04-2009, 23:39 PM
Have you written to the LL about these problems?
This is probably in a clause in your agreement.
Tbh it is not really up to you to decide that the LL won't give you the money back.
Why would you think that unless you though you had possibly not kept the property or intend to return it in the same state as you found it?
Are you covered by the deposit legislation?
Send a letter stating your intentions and give your LL a proper right to reply ie 7 day letter signed for.
If he doesn't reply then he is ignorant and fair enough his loss.

jeffrey
03-04-2009, 00:09 AM
We are moving out of a property on 26th April...
We are not 100% sure that the landlord will give us back our full deposit,
there is nothing wrong with the house at all, but by the way he words he emails about this, you wouldn't trust him, so as a precaution we have cancelled our last months rent, this is the same amount as our bond.

He has now sent us an email after 5 days threating us with court proceedings if we dont pay straight away, is this just a scary tactic to get us to pay and if we dont what could happen.

If we don't pay then our bond won't be returned to us at the end of the months, but we will be equal with money after that.

Also he refuse's to answer his phone when you call him to discuss things about the property, for instance, there is a major crack in the fuse box and the electrics in the out house that is next to the house are not earthed, he sent a electrican out at beginning of the year to do a safety check and he told us that these 2 things were totally unsafe and should be condemed, he then reported this back to him, but as yet the landlord has done nothing about these issues, is this a breach of his contract as a landlord ?
What makes you doubt:
a. L's honesty; and
b. that he will repay your deposit?

I do not think that your conduct is all that honest, in fact. Why should L not sue for your admitted breach of rent-payment obligation?

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 09:06 AM
What makes you doubt:
a. L's honesty; and
b. that he will repay your deposit?

I do not think that your conduct is all that honest, in fact. Why should L not sue for your admitted breach of rent-payment obligation?

We doubt the landlord honesty by the way he words his emails about us moving out of the house, ie, when we emailed him three times reguarding querys about the process of moving out, deposit back, etc, he emailed back and told us what would happen and the times it would happen and that he wasn't spending anymore time dealing with us because we were taking up too much of his time.

He doesn't work, he has approx 65 propertys to look after, so should be used to getting lots of querys from tennats.
He has never answered the phone when you phone him or called us back after we leave a message.

Comments like on his email like "I live in London and if you think I'm going to personally drive 300 miles up north with your deposit in pound coins to give it straight back to you, then you are sadly mistaken and you will get your deposit back once i have sent someone to inspect the house which might be some weeks after you move out"
This above kind of thing in a email is one of the reasons to doubt him

The house is in very good condition, i know this because i have decorated all the rooms to a high standard

It's just the way he has reacted to our letter informing him we are moving out, he has turned from a decent landlord to a really snotty one about us contacting him.
We have put this down to the fact that he may have to put new windows and heating in the house as it most proberley won't meet the energy effiencey standard because of how old the house is and the condition of the heating, etc.

In regard to the faulty fusebox and non-earthed electrics, we have informed him about this and his electricion has also said same thing on inspectation, is this a breach of his landlord terms for his tennats ?

jeffrey
03-04-2009, 09:27 AM
We doubt the landlord honesty by the way he words his emails about us moving out of the house, ie, when we emailed him three times reguarding querys about the process of moving out, deposit back, etc, he emailed back and told us what would happen and the times it would happen and that he wasn't spending anymore time dealing with us because we were taking up too much of his time.

He doesn't work, he has approx 65 propertys to look after, so should be used to getting lots of querys from tennats.
He has never answered the phone when you phone him or called us back after we leave a message.

Comments like on his email like "I live in London and if you think I'm going to personally drive 300 miles up north with your deposit in pound coins to give it straight back to you, then you are sadly mistaken and you will get your deposit back once i have sent someone to inspect the house which might be some weeks after you move out"
This above kind of thing in a email is one of the reasons to doubt him

The house is in very good condition, i know this because i have decorated all the rooms to a high standard

It's just the way he has reacted to our letter informing him we are moving out, he has turned from a decent landlord to a really snotty one about us contacting him.
We have put this down to the fact that he may have to put new windows and heating in the house as it most proberley won't meet the energy effiencey standard because of how old the house is and the condition of the heating, etc.
OK. That sounds a more cogent explanation than previously vouchsafed, even though I do not agree with it!


In regard to the faulty fusebox and non-earthed electrics, we have informed him about this and his electricion has also said same thing on inspectation, is this a breach of his landlord terms for his tenants ?
Yes. Under s.11 of LTA 1985, L is inescapably liable for the electrical installations.

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 09:49 AM
OK. That sounds a more cogent explanation than previously vouchsafed, even though I do not agree with it!


Yes. Under s.11 of LTA 1985, L is inescapably liable for the electrical installations.

So if he threated us with legal action for the last months rent, even though he would keep our bond, so technical we would we equal, could i take legal action against him for the above faults with the electric under s.11 of LTA 1985 ?

Seminole
03-04-2009, 10:41 AM
You need to bear in mind that you might need a landlord's reference from him at some point in the future if you choose to rent again. Also, if he obtained a county court judgement against you that would serverely damage your credit rating.

Having said that, his comment about the deposit being returned after "several weeks" seriously annoyed me. There is no excuse for the check out to not occur on the last day of the tenancy and for the deposit to be returned very quickly thereafter if there aren't any issues. Too many landlords regard the deposit as a pot into which they want to dip as much as possible. Given that the expect it to be paid over on or before the day the tenancy commences, there is no excuse for similar urgency to not be applied to dealing with it at term.

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 16:13 PM
You need to bear in mind that you might need a landlord's reference from him at some point in the future if you choose to rent again. Also, if he obtained a county court judgement against you that would serverely damage your credit rating.

Having said that, his comment about the deposit being returned after "several weeks" seriously annoyed me. There is no excuse for the check out to not occur on the last day of the tenancy and for the deposit to be returned very quickly thereafter if there aren't any issues. Too many landlords regard the deposit as a pot into which they want to dip as much as possible. Given that the expect it to be paid over on or before the day the tenancy commences, there is no excuse for similar urgency to not be applied to dealing with it at term.

Yeah, well we thought that we could arrange for this deposit issue to happen on the last day of our tenancy, but that is a Sunday and he was unwilling to make it happen unless we paid him £50 upfront for someone to come out to the house on that day, he then said that "it wasn't his fault we had chosen to
move out on a Sunday", he should know that our last agreed date for living in the house is Sunday and therefore wouldn't be moving out any earlier than this, i understand about the ccj issue, but i'm quite sure he's not going to take it all the way to court just over one final months missed payment, the 1st time is 4 years it has happened, as this would cost him money and time to attend from London and also he still has our bond which is £450, same as our rent.

So after the inspection, which will be fine by the way, he won't have lost out on rent and we won't have lost out on deposit, to me, that seems a fair and easy way to deal with this whole issue.

mind the gap
03-04-2009, 16:32 PM
Yeah, well we thought that we could arrange for this deposit issue to happen on the last day of our tenancy, but that is a Sunday and he was unwilling to make it happen unless we paid him £50 upfront for someone to come out to the house on that day, he then said that "it wasn't his fault we had chosen to
move out on a Sunday", he should know that our last agreed date for living in the house is Sunday and therefore wouldn't be moving out any earlier than this, i understand about the ccj issue, but i'm quite sure he's not going to take it all the way to court just over one final months missed payment, the 1st time is 4 years it has happened, as this would cost him money and time to attend from London and also he still has our bond which is £450, same as our rent.

So after the inspection, which will be fine by the way, he won't have lost out on rent and we won't have lost out on deposit, to me, that seems a fair and easy way to deal with this whole issue.

Two wrongs do not make a right, and it is a little late now to start threatening to sue him about the electrics. The correct procedure is to alert the EHo who will visit and, if he feels it necessary, compel LL to effect repairs.

Pay your rent, as you are contracted to.

When you move out, leave the proeprty in the same state of cleanliness in which you found it according to the check-in inventory.

If he attempts to keep your deposit, dispute this. You still haven't answered the question about whether it is protected in a scheme or not. If it is, all well and good - dispute any unfair deductions through the scheme.

If it is not, and it should have been, then sue him for non-protection.

Has he protected it or not?

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 16:53 PM
Two wrongs do not make a right, and it is a little late now to start threatening to sue him about the electrics. The correct procedure is to alert the EHo who will visit and, if he feels it necessary, compel LL to effect repairs.

Pay your rent, as you are contracted to.

When you move out, leave the proeprty in the same state of cleanliness in which you found it according to the check-in inventory.

If he attempts to keep your deposit, dispute this. You still haven't answered the question about whether it is protected in a scheme or not. If it is, all well and good - dispute any unfair deductions through the scheme.

If it is not, and it should have been, then sue him for non-protection.

Has he protected it or not?

Not sure if he has protected it or not, we moved in in August 2005, so totally unsure about this issue, also we never had a check in inventory when we moved in, but on our tenacy agreement it says "unfurnished property"

Poppy
03-04-2009, 17:16 PM
If you have not signed any further tenancy agreements with this landlord since August 2005, then there is no requirement for the deposit to be placed in a scheme. This is not an issue.

house275
03-04-2009, 18:03 PM
Surely from the T perspective this is a bigger issue as if its not protected the T cannot call on
arbitration
He is at the will of the L
And could face a long wait & court fees etc.. to get his money back

Personally I would not pay last months rent go with your gut instinct you have dealt with this person for 4 years,you know what he's like
As long as it is the exact amount of the deposit that you withold
I would also photograph all the rooms & garden etc... prior to leaving just in case he decides to "find" some damage after you go

You need to do what works for you

I can totally see why you are concerned

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 18:48 PM
If you have not signed any further tenancy agreements with this landlord since August 2005, then there is no requirement for the deposit to be placed in a scheme. This is not an issue.


In regard to the issue of the deposit being protected, we had our rent changed increased in January 2009 from £430 to £450 pcm, does this mean that the deposit is now covered, I have a feeling that it won't be, could anyone advise on this issue, thanks,

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 19:03 PM
Surely from the T perspective this is a bigger issue as if its not protected the T cannot call on
arbitration
He is at the will of the L
And could face a long wait & court fees etc.. to get his money back

Personally I would not pay last months rent go with your gut instinct you have dealt with this person for 4 years,you know what he's like
As long as it is the exact amount of the deposit that you withold
I would also photograph all the rooms & garden etc... prior to leaving just in case he decides to "find" some damage after you go

You need to do what works for you

I can totally see why you are concerned

House275,
I'm going to photograph all the rooms on the day we move out to prove that there is no damage with them, we cannot trim the grass in the garden as the power in the outhouse has been condemned three months ago and also the fuse box has a big crack in it. Electrician working for landlord told us this on a inspection back in January, we have informed him via email but our landlord has yet to do anything about it !

We are also going to be present during the inspection on the day after we move out and will be requesting copies of any checklists been made, for our records.

The rent amount is £450 pcm and according to our landlord via an email our bond/deposit that we are due back is also £450, so my thinking was to just ignore the landlord until end of April, then when we hand our keys back to his agent and speak to him, we can hopefully just call it evens and get into our new property.

We have also had an email from landlord just 6 days after the rent was due threating us with Court action if we don't pay up straight away.

Does anyone have any advise on the above details, etc,

Also if the landlord did go all the way to court over £450 rent, would a judge see it from both sides and realize that no one is actually out of pocket (i.e, he will keep our bond, we won't pay final months rent) and just dismiss the case, etc ?

mind the gap
03-04-2009, 19:06 PM
In regard to the issue of the deposit being protected, we had our rent changed increased in January 2009 from £430 to £450 pcm, does this mean that the deposit is now covered, I have a feeling that it won't be, could anyone advise on this issue, thanks,

Unless you signed a new agreement at some point after April 6 2007, there will have been no requirement to protect. How exactly were you notifed about the rent increase, though? Did that involve issuing and signing a new contract, or was it done by means of an additional notice?

This may be significant.

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 19:20 PM
Unless you signed a new agreement at some point after April 6 2007, there will have been no requirement to protect. How exactly were you notifed about the rent increase, though? Did that involve issuing and signing a new contract, or was it done by means of an additional notice?

This may be significant.

We were informed by letter as to when our rent increase was from, this included our new tenancy agreement to reflect the rent changes but we wasn't required to re-sign anything on our behalf and send it back to him, hope this helps,

Thanks for helping answer my many questions

house275
03-04-2009, 20:01 PM
Protect your position
The landlord will still get his money

Take pictures of the electrical issue report it to the council
The next family that rent the property need to know it is condemed

mind the gap
03-04-2009, 20:40 PM
We were informed by letter as to when our rent increase was from, this included our new tenancy agreement to reflect the rent changes but we wasn't required to re-sign anything on our behalf and send it back to him, hope this helps,

Thanks for helping answer my many questions

If there was a new tenancy agreement which created a new shorthold assured tenancy (as opposed to just continuing the previous one on a periodic basis), then the deposit should have been protected. Did the 'new tenancy agreement' with the new rent amount in it, give a start and end date to the tenancy (ie a fixed term AST), or did it say it was a continuation of a periodic one?

da_melonuk
03-04-2009, 21:28 PM
If there was a new tenancy agreement which created a new shorthold assured tenancy (as opposed to just continuing the previous one on a periodic basis), then the deposit should have been protected. Did the 'new tenancy agreement' with the new rent amount in it, give a start and end date to the tenancy (ie a fixed term AST), or did it say it was a continuation of a periodic one?

It was just a continuation of a periodic one, we dont have a fixed term contract, just a month to month rental of the house until either party gives further notice,etc.

mind the gap
03-04-2009, 21:34 PM
It was just a continuation of a periodic one, we dont have a fixed term contract, just a month to month rental of the house until either party gives further notice,etc.

In that case, deposit protection was not required.

Ericthelobster
04-04-2009, 10:08 AM
Also if the landlord did go all the way to court over £450 rent, would a judge see it from both sides and realize that no one is actually out of pocket (i.e, he will keep our bond, we won't pay final months rent) and just dismiss the case, etc ?What will happen in practice is that your LL will assess the property for any damage which you are due to pay and deduct the cost of that from the deposit. Whatever's left over will then be deducted from your 1 months' rent arrears, and you will have no defence against that. You'll also probably get to pay the LL's costs.

However, if you decide that the LL has unfairly deducted money from the deposit, then it will be up to you to countersue for the return of that.

That would be my interpretation, anyway. Do others agree?

If there are no deductions from the deposit then everybody's happy, obviously.

Ericthelobster
04-04-2009, 10:18 AM
Comments like on his email like "I live in London and if you think I'm going to personally drive 300 miles up north with your deposit in pound coins to give it straight back to you, then you are sadly mistaken and you will get your deposit back once i have sent someone to inspect the house which might be some weeks after you move out"Very unprofessional; not the sort of wording I'd ever consider putting in writing myself, even if I might be thinking it!

Hard to tell exactly what he means by "might be some weeks after you move out", but if he's talking about the inspection, rather than the return of your deposit, then he will have not a leg to stand on regarding retaining anything from your deposit. The inspection needs to be done immediately you've vacated otherwise there's no proof that any claimed damage wasn't done after you left.

Also, from the stroppy response it looks to me as if you've demanded the deposit to be returned in cash on the day you vacate - correct? Personally I would never do that - I would always return the deposit by a cheque in the post, thereby generating an audit trail, a forwarding address for the ex-tenant which may be useful later, and if I'm honest, buys me a little bit of extra time to check over the place thoroughly for any horrors which the tenant may have carefully concealed during the inspection.

mind the gap
04-04-2009, 10:24 AM
Very sound reasoning and advice.

da_melonuk
05-04-2009, 00:03 AM
Very unprofessional; not the sort of wording I'd ever consider putting in writing myself, even if I might be thinking it!

Hard to tell exactly what he means by "might be some weeks after you move out", but if he's talking about the inspection, rather than the return of your deposit, then he will have not a leg to stand on regarding retaining anything from your deposit. The inspection needs to be done immediately you've vacated otherwise there's no proof that any claimed damage wasn't done after you left.

Also, from the stroppy response it looks to me as if you've demanded the deposit to be returned in cash on the day you vacate - correct? Personally I would never do that - I would always return the deposit by a cheque in the post, thereby generating an audit trail, a forwarding address for the ex-tenant which may be useful later, and if I'm honest, buys me a little bit of extra time to check over the place thoroughly for any horrors which the tenant may have carefully concealed during the inspection.

No, we didn't demand the deposit back from him in cash on the day we moved out, but he just said that in his email, which got our backs up about the whole issue, from the 1st moment we sent the letter about moving out, he has been very very nasty in some of his email about the simple things we are asking him, as 1st time tennats moving out of a house, etc. thats why we are going down the route of holding the last months rent to one side, then he won't pay us our deposit back which happens to be same amount as rent and everyone should be happy and believe me the property is in better condition then when we 1st moved in, as we have decorated every room over the 4 years been here. We'll just see what happens before end of April and over the next few weeks with him and his non rent payment

da_melonuk
05-04-2009, 00:15 AM
also, can the landlord really take us to court over one missed rent payment in just over 4 years worth of not once missing a payment ? which happens to be our final months rent payment, but he still has our bond, which he can keep and then everything is fair and square, or would a judge look bad against us for this ?

jta
05-04-2009, 03:54 AM
also, can the landlord really take us to court over one missed rent payment in just over 4 years worth of not once missing a payment ? which happens to be our final months rent payment, but he still has our bond, which he can keep and then everything is fair and square, or would a judge look bad against us for this ?

After you have moved out, the LL will apply any funds from the deposit towards damages first, I know you're saying there aren't any, but after 4 years there could well be something. Anything left could go towards the rent owing. Whether or not it would be cost effective for him to chase you into court or not is not really the point, you would owe him money and it could lead to a ccj for you. Is that what you want?

Preston
05-04-2009, 09:02 AM
Hi

Just a few points, all of which have been mentioned before, but which, from a quick reading of the thread, do not seem to have been fully followed up by the OP.

With regard to the rent increase, there are four main ways that this could have been done correctly:
i) if there was a clause in your original agreement specifying how this should happen. Was there anything in that agreement? If there was, did the landlord comply with the terms of that agreement?
ii) by agreement between landlord and tenant. Did you agree to the increase?
iii) by the issuing of a new tenancy agreement. You say that you were given a new agreement with the a new rent. Did the new agreement differ from the old agreement in any way? Does the new agreement show a start date for a "new" tenancy? You have mentioned that you did not sign it, but was it signed by the landlord or his agent? The more yes' you have here, the more likely that the new arrangement will be regarded as a new tenancy.
iv) by the issuing of a validly drafted "section 13" notice. You will know if you have had one of these, because it will refer to section 13 on it, but from what you have said so far, it seems likely that you haven't been served one of these.

I have to say that from what you have said so far, there seems to me to be a real possibility that a new tenancy has been created. (Incidentally, on this point, the agreement does not need to include any fixed period, it can be periodic from the start, even though the landlord would not be entitled to apply for possession under the section 21 procedure until after six months has expired).

If a new agreement has been created on or after the date in April 2007 when the new deposit regulations came in, then the deposit should have been protected and you can sue for 3 x the amount of the deposit.

On the other hand, if the rent has not been increased properly using one of the methods described above, then the increase is not payable and in effect you will be "in credit" by £20 x however many months you have paid the increase. You may be wondering (with regard to (ii) above) whether, if there was no explicit agreement to the increase, your silence since the increase was imposed will be taken as implied agreement. The short answer to this is that it might, but probably not. My experience of such cases at county court level is that judges tend to require strict compliance with the formalities with regard to rent increases.

What do the agreements (the original and the new one) say about how deposits will be dealt with? For example, do they give a timescale or explain a procedure for the return and if so, do the landlord's comments about waiting "several weeks" comply with the agreement? If not, then your case for withholding the final month's rent may be stronger.

Finally, has the landlord provided you with a "section 48" notice, namely, an address in Engand or Wales to which you can send legal notices? This is usually contained in the tenancy agreement or in a separate letter. If he hasn't then you do not have to pay the rent at all until he does.

Some more information on all these points would help contributors advise you further.

My personal view on your situation is that any landlord who displays such a bad attitude towards dealing with what is the tenant's own money must expect the tenant to come out fighting and I have to say that based on the information given so far, I would have been inclined to withhold the last month's rent too.

You have to be aware, though, that there is a risk to this approach. Although very unlikely, the landlord could apply to a court for a money judgement and unless you can show that you owed nothing at all, he may be able to get a judgement against you.

Good luck.

Preston

da_melonuk
05-04-2009, 22:07 PM
Hi

Just a few points, all of which have been mentioned before, but which, from a quick reading of the thread, do not seem to have been fully followed up by the OP.

With regard to the rent increase, there are four main ways that this could have been done correctly:
i) if there was a clause in your original agreement specifying how this should happen. Was there anything in that agreement? If there was, did the landlord comply with the terms of that agreement?

ii) by agreement between landlord and tenant. Did you agree to the increase?
iii) by the issuing of a new tenancy agreement. You say that you were given a new agreement with the a new rent. Did the new agreement differ from the old agreement in any way? Does the new agreement show a start date for a "new" tenancy? You have mentioned that you did not sign it, but was it signed by the landlord or his agent? The more yes' you have here, the more likely that the new arrangement will be regarded as a new tenancy.
iv) by the issuing of a validly drafted "section 13" notice. You will know if you have had one of these, because it will refer to section 13 on it, but from what you have said so far, it seems likely that you haven't been served one of these.

I have to say that from what you have said so far, there seems to me to be a real possibility that a new tenancy has been created. (Incidentally, on this point, the agreement does not need to include any fixed period, it can be periodic from the start, even though the landlord would not be entitled to apply for possession under the section 21 procedure until after six months has expired).

If a new agreement has been created on or after the date in April 2007 when the new deposit regulations came in, then the deposit should have been protected and you can sue for 3 x the amount of the deposit.

On the other hand, if the rent has not been increased properly using one of the methods described above, then the increase is not payable and in effect you will be "in credit" by £20 x however many months you have paid the increase. You may be wondering (with regard to (ii) above) whether, if there was no explicit agreement to the increase, your silence since the increase was imposed will be taken as implied agreement. The short answer to this is that it might, but probably not. My experience of such cases at county court level is that judges tend to require strict compliance with the formalities with regard to rent increases.

What do the agreements (the original and the new one) say about how deposits will be dealt with? For example, do they give a timescale or explain a procedure for the return and if so, do the landlord's comments about waiting "several weeks" comply with the agreement? If not, then your case for withholding the final month's rent may be stronger.

Finally, has the landlord provided you with a "section 48" notice, namely, an address in Engand or Wales to which you can send legal notices? This is usually contained in the tenancy agreement or in a separate letter. If he hasn't then you do not have to pay the rent at all until he does.

Some more information on all these points would help contributors advise you further.

My personal view on your situation is that any landlord who displays such a bad attitude towards dealing with what is the tenant's own money must expect the tenant to come out fighting and I have to say that based on the information given so far, I would have been inclined to withhold the last month's rent too.

You have to be aware, though, that there is a risk to this approach. Although very unlikely, the landlord could apply to a court for a money judgement and unless you can show that you owed nothing at all, he may be able to get a judgement against you.

Good luck.

Preston

Thank you for the very good information given above Preston, I understand where the landlord is coming from about the last months rent non payment but I also have to see it from my point of view, and to risk losing £450 if our bond is not returned is a big risk to take.

This is the story of what has happened over the past 6 approx,

6 weeks ago we gave him our notice via email which was dated as 26th March as he said that would be fine.This took us from 26th March until 26th April (the day we move out). At first he was very understanding in his first 2 emails about our reasons for moving out, mainly this reason is down to the fact that it has cost us roughly £70-80 a month over winter to heat our house,because the window seals are knackered and the boiler is not energy efficient at all.

When we then tried to call the landlord to ask how the return of the bond would take place, he didn't answer, so we left him 2 message to return our calls in regard to this, but because he didn't we had to send a series of emails between ourself and the landlord.We asked a few questions about things as this was our 1st time of moving out of a rented property.

Now these emails went back of forth, approx 3-4 emails sent and 3-4 emails received, on the 3rd or 4th email received from our landlord it stated that he was fed up with these questions taking up too much of his time and that he wasn't prepared spend anymore of his time dealing with our questions. He stated that someone from a letting agents his deals with and a guy that does Energy Efficiency Certificate would call us and arrange to inspect the house.

He also stated that it would cost us £50 payable in advance for the agent to come out on the Sunday (last official day of tenancy) to inspect the property and collect the keys. If not then we would have to arrange a time ourselves for this to take place. He said it wasn't his fault we had chosen Sunday to be the last day of our tenancy even though our monthly rent is paid on 26th of every month for one month in advance and the 26th April just happens to be a Sunday.

We emailed him back and asked for possible dates these people would be wanting to call to see us, and that myself and my partner both work until 6:30pm Monday to Friday and we would need 2 weeks notice to arrange any visit (so we could alter shifts at work,etc), he never replied to this email.

After taking to several other people who are renting houses and asking there thoughts on this matter, we decided to see what would happen if we held back our last month rent (£450) to cover ourself in case our bond (£450) was not paid back to us. For which there is no reason for it not to be paid back, as the house is in a better state than when we moved in, as we have decorated every room to a high standard and I'm not telling lies when I say this.

He next emailed us 6 days after our rent was due (1st time in 4 years it was missed) stating that we had to pay it immediately or he would be contacting his solicitors about taking us to County Court over the missed payment, he also stated that we are bound by our tenancy agreement to let people come to the property inside our last month and expected us to facilitate this.(This sounded like he was telling us we didn't have a choice about people attending and we would have to make time for the visits during our working week).

We couldn't believe his attitude towards us over the whole moving out/deposit returning questions.

As tenants we have contacted him 2-3 time in 4 years about little issues, twice for an ants nest in our living room and once for issues with a fault in the whole locking system in the front door.

We also told him via email back in January that there was a major crack in the fuse board in the house and the electrics in the out house were not earthed and had been condemned by his own electrician that had done a safety check on the property in January, which we asked for after the crack was pointed out by a engineer from British Gas who came to fit a new electric meter.

So far we have had heard nothing about him arranging to fix the 2 issues, which I was led to believe he had as the landlord of the property.
We use the out house electric point to cut the grass, etc, which we have been doing for 4 years and it was unearthed all this time and would have been like that even before we moved in, is this a breach of his contract and could something be mentioned about this, if he does decide to take us to court over one months missed payment ?

Now you have the whole back story as to why we are going down the route which we are taking.

Any feedback would be gratefully received.
Thanks in advance.

Preston
05-04-2009, 22:37 PM
Thanks for the further info, but I can't really give any more feedback unless you are able to answer the points raised in my earlier post.

Good luck anyway.

da_melonuk
05-04-2009, 23:01 PM
Thanks for the further info, but I can't really give any more feedback unless you are able to answer the points raised in my earlier post.

Good luck anyway.

Will try and find out some answers to your questions above.
Do you think we have any just and valid reasons as to why we have held last months rent payment, on the basis of worrying about getting deposit back due to the emails and answered recieved from LL, if it went to court of course ?

Ericthelobster
06-04-2009, 07:50 AM
Do you think we have any just and valid reasons as to why we have held last months rent payment, on the basis of worrying about getting deposit back due to the emails and answered recieved from LL, if it went to court of course ?To be honest, no.

Don't get hung up on the electrics issue; yes he should have sorted it and there were things you could maybe have done earlier to make that happen, but witholding the rent now isn't the answer and doesn't help your position. It isn't relevant.

Consider also how long it takes the courts to do the paperwork; if LL does go ahead with that route, you'll be long gone before you even get a court date, so you'll know how much money is involved overall (ie, per my previous post). Also, for that reason I would be pretty surprised if he initiated court proceedings before that, since as far as he's concerned if there's no damage and he's happy to return your deposit in full, then there'd be no claim for him to make.

da_melonuk
06-04-2009, 18:03 PM
To be honest, no.

Don't get hung up on the electrics issue; yes he should have sorted it and there were things you could maybe have done earlier to make that happen, but witholding the rent now isn't the answer and doesn't help your position. It isn't relevant.

Consider also how long it takes the courts to do the paperwork; if LL does go ahead with that route, you'll be long gone before you even get a court date, so you'll know how much money is involved overall (ie, per my previous post). Also, for that reason I would be pretty surprised if he initiated court proceedings before that, since as far as he's concerned if there's no damage and he's happy to return your deposit in full, then there'd be no claim for him to make.

Thankyou for your reply, I fully expect the whole situation to be sorted out in one simple way, he doesn't give us our bond back (£450) on the moving out date and then we won't owe him the one months back rent (£450). He might be mad at the moment but I would imagine he'll start thinking the same way as we are soon and we only have 20 more days in this property and counting.

johnjw
06-04-2009, 19:59 PM
The LL is understandably annoyed because you have taken away his means of protecting himself against tenant damage. You are no doubt sincere in believing that you are returning the property in better condition than you found it, but you are effectively saying to the LL - "you can trust me although I don't trust you"
This thread illustrates quite well why many LL's charge 1.5 x rent pcm. as deposit.

da_melonuk
06-04-2009, 20:31 PM
The LL is understandably annoyed because you have taken away his means of protecting himself against tenant damage. You are no doubt sincere in believing that you are returning the property in better condition than you found it, but you are effectively saying to the LL - "you can trust me although I don't trust you"
This thread illustrates quite well why many LL's charge 1.5 x rent pcm. as deposit.

Yeah, but on the other hand that what the landlord said in one of his emails, he mentioned about the fact that he trusts us and we trust him, but it seems to be only working one way from his point of view, so we have protected ourselves from our trust point of view.

Lawcruncher
08-04-2009, 11:07 AM
I would always return the deposit by a cheque in the post... [which] if I'm honest, buys me a little bit of extra time to check over the place thoroughly for any horrors which the tenant may have carefully concealed during the inspection.

This suggests that you would:

1. Inspect and, no damage being apparent,

2. Issue a cheque for the deposit.

3. Then inspect carefully and if you find any horrors which the tenant may have carefully concealed during the inspection,

4. Stop the cheque.

You need to bear in mind (quite apart from the fact that returning the deposit may imply that you are satisfied that there is no damage) that once issued a cheque takes on a life of its own. The tenant can sue on the cheque and you have no defence. All you can do is counterclaim for the damage.

tacchan14
14-04-2009, 15:33 PM
I have similar problem with the host. My house is a shared flat, and I knew that the LL refused to return the deposits of some tenants returning to their home countries.

My question is that whether by law she can insist on me to pay in cash?

da_melonuk
14-04-2009, 15:38 PM
Hi,
We have now resorted to txt messages from our landlord, which state that we have not paid the last months rent and that his electrician never informed him of any faults after his inspection, even though he told us about them to our faces. He is also threating us with interest payments on the one months rent (£450) we owe him,.Then he has also demanding that we provide him with a our new address so he can forward on any post or bills. We are not providing it to him,as we have already changed our address details with relevant companys and will use the Post Office service of redirecting mail to our new address for a few months.
They will be no final bills for services, ie, gas,water,electric as we pay it upfront on a meter scheme.

A few questions if someone could answer them, would be grateful

1) If he puts the matter of overdue rent into his solicators by end of
business tomorrow, do you think we'll hear anything from them by 25th
April when we move out ? (11 days and counting !)

2) Does anyone think it's just a tactic he is using to try and get our payment
off us and then disappear when we ask him about the deposit back,

3) Keeps mentioning about adding his court costs on to the final bill as well,
is this right ?

4) Any one know how much stuff like that costs these days ?

5) Do we have to provide him with our new adddress for when we move out ?

6) We owe him £450 in rent, he owes us £450 in deposit, will he really be
bothered to waste his time taking us to court over this issue ?
Seen as he won't lose any money if he just keeps our bond and we dont
pay him the last months rent.

Atleast he is now showing his true colours as a landlord, by been all nice and friendly during the 4 years we are here and then as soon as we say we a moving out, he turns nasty and starts being rude and ignorant towards us.

Perplexed
14-04-2009, 15:45 PM
Atleast he is now showing his true colours as a landlord, by been all nice and friendly during the 4 years we are here and then as soon as we say we a moving out, he turns nasty and starts being rude and ignorant towards us.

It seems you are showing your true colours by withholding rent that is lawfully due.

As for trust, he has entrusted you with possession of his property, which I am sure is worth a lot more than your piddly £450, has he not?

Get real!

da_melonuk
14-04-2009, 15:59 PM
It seems you are showing your true colours by withholding rent that is lawfully due.

As for trust, he has entrusted you with possession of his property, which I am sure is worth a lot more than your piddly £450, has he not?

Get real!

The only colours i am showing is the one to protect my money, i'm not the one sending snoty emails about details on the process, etc. That's down to the landlord.
Please read all the previous posts as to see why we have been put into the postion of fearing for not getting our rent back !

The house is worth more than £450, but we cannot take the risk of losing £450 in unpaid deposit, if he decide's to not pay us it back or make things up about the state of the house, so hence our postion.

Also if we keep the keys until the day after we move out, can he charge us for one days rent because of this, because he is refusing to send someone out on the day our tennacy agreement ends, which just happens to be a Sunday unless we pay him £50 upfront for this service.

Thankyou

tacchan14
14-04-2009, 16:09 PM
1) If he puts the matter of overdue rent into his solicators by end of
business tomorrow, do you think we'll hear anything from them by 25th
April when we move out ? (11 days and counting !)

He can apply for a court order for eviction, 14 days after the designated date of rent payment. You can count it yourself.

2) Does anyone think it's just a tactic he is using to try and get our payment
off us and then disappear when we ask him about the deposit back,

Obviously. For one of the victims in my house, she asked me where the landlady lived on the date of checkout.

3) Keeps mentioning about adding his court costs on to the final bill as well,
is this right ?

After he wins the case against you in the court, he can charge you for his legal fee. Whether he can do this on the final rent bill, I am not sure.

4) Any one know how much stuff like that costs these days ?

I have been to Small Claim Court myself. As a claimant, it costed 50 to file in a case, and an extra 50 to book a date with the defendant. My waiting time was for 5 months.

5) Do we have to provide him with our new adddress for when we move out ?

Not sure on this one.

6) We owe him £450 in rent, he owes us £450 in deposit, will he really be
bothered to waste his time taking us to court over this issue ?
Seen as he won't lose any money if he just keeps our bond and we dont
pay him the last months rent.

As pointed out in an earlier post, it's unlikely for him to spend £100, chase you down for 5 months on £450. However, you cant say 'he owes us £450' for the time being, as there is no inventory check-out.

From my experience, the rent arrears will be considered in the final inventory check-out, together with other defects.

da_melonuk
14-04-2009, 16:55 PM
1) If he puts the matter of overdue rent into his solicators by end of
business tomorrow, do you think we'll hear anything from them by 25th
April when we move out ? (11 days and counting !)

He can apply for a court order for eviction, 14 days after the designated date of rent payment. You can count it yourself.

2) Does anyone think it's just a tactic he is using to try and get our payment
off us and then disappear when we ask him about the deposit back,

Obviously. For one of the victims in my house, she asked me where the landlady lived on the date of checkout.

3) Keeps mentioning about adding his court costs on to the final bill as well,
is this right ?

After he wins the case against you in the court, he can charge you for his legal fee. Whether he can do this on the final rent bill, I am not sure.

4) Any one know how much stuff like that costs these days ?

I have been to Small Claim Court myself. As a claimant, it costed 50 to file in a case, and an extra 50 to book a date with the defendant. My waiting time was for 5 months.

5) Do we have to provide him with our new adddress for when we move out ?

Not sure on this one.

6) We owe him £450 in rent, he owes us £450 in deposit, will he really be
bothered to waste his time taking us to court over this issue ?
Seen as he won't lose any money if he just keeps our bond and we dont
pay him the last months rent.

As pointed out in an earlier post, it's unlikely for him to spend £100, chase you down for 5 months on £450. However, you cant say 'he owes us £450' for the time being, as there is no inventory check-out.

From my experience, the rent arrears will be considered in the final inventory check-out, together with other defects.

Thanks for answering my questions, but just a few more now,

He can apply for a court order for eviction, 14 days after the designated date of rent payment. You can count it yourself. Our rent was due on 26th March, 14 days after that is 9th April, but its now 14th April and haven't had anything about an eviction notice ?, i dont fully understand this.

2nd,
As in my previous post, becasue he is unwilling to send someone for the keys on Sunday 26th April unless we pay him £50 upfront, can he charge us for having the keys until Monday 27th April, when an agent will collect them and do the final inspection ?

Poppy
14-04-2009, 17:03 PM
The words to take note of are "can" and "apply". The person/claimant giving notice of their intention to issue court proceedings can decide when to apply for a hearing. You're leaving anyway at the end of the month. Don't get hung up on this.

Not many agents work on Sundays. Are you able to leave on the Saturday during the agent's office hours?

da_melonuk
14-04-2009, 17:11 PM
The words to take note of are "can" and "apply". The person/claimant giving notice of their intention to issue court proceedings can decide when to apply for a hearing. You're leaving anyway at the end of the month. Don't get hung up on this.

Not many agents work on Sundays. Are you able to leave on the Saturday during the agent's office hours?

We could if we tried really hard but its easier to have 2 days to move our stuff out than one, the landlord mentioned the Monday off his own back, but would he try and charge us for an extra one days rent because of this ? He lives in London so won't be coming up to collect the keys,

tacchan14
14-04-2009, 18:10 PM
:mad:

Contrary to some previous post, I FULLY SUPPORT YOUR WITH-HOLDING OF THE LAST MONTH'S RENT. This is a case of either yours or mine, and there is no chance of a 'draw'. He is not a bona fide landlord, asyYou are probably NOT binded by the contract to pay extra for an inventory check-out. Why cant he negeotiate with you for a non-sunday?

On the eviction order, let's put it 'After 14 days in rent arrears, he is entitled to apply for a court order to kick you out. However, he can choose not to.' I agree that you are leaving so soon, just endure the ordeal for another 2-3 weeks.

tacchan14
14-04-2009, 18:24 PM
I have the question of my own as well:

Can the landlord force us to pay the rent in any form, e.g. cash?

da_melonuk
14-04-2009, 21:27 PM
:mad:

Contrary to some previous post, I FULLY SUPPORT YOUR WITH-HOLDING OF THE LAST MONTH'S RENT. This is a case of either yours or mine, and there is no chance of a 'draw'. He is not a bona fide landlord, asyYou are probably NOT binded by the contract to pay extra for an inventory check-out. Why cant he negotiate with you for a non-sunday?

On the eviction order, let's put it 'After 14 days in rent arrears, he is entitled to apply for a court order to kick you out. However, he can choose not to.' I agree that you are leaving so soon, just endure the ordeal for another 2-3 weeks.

Thanks,
He won't negotiate with us on a non Sunday moving out time, as he says it's not his fault that we have chosen to move out on a Sunday, but this just happens to be the date that our monthly agreement runs out on.
As for a inventory check-out, we never had a inventory check-in when we moved into the house, basically it was our friends who were renting from him and they moved on and we moved in. He never did any checks with us before we moved in either.

Its only 11 days until me move out, so hardly think he's gonna get a court order to kick us out and issue it to us in that time.

He also mentions that we are going to have to pay the interest that has built up on his £450 rent since 26th March until 26th April, which according to him is part of the terms and conditions in our tenancy agreement, but I have read through these and it does not mention anything about this.

Also he keeps on texts us saying "He'll issue us with a CCJ on our credit report" if we don't pay him by tomorrow evening, to my understanding, only the courts can issue you with this and only after they have sent you letters and you've had chance to contact them,etc and in his texts he also requests the name of our solicitor and that we have to give him our forwarding address for any bill payments outstanding. How can you have bill payments outstanding when your paying for gas,water,electric,council tax on a prepayment card method and all our services, sky, bt, have been swapped over to the new house.

We also have had nothing in writing from him, in regard to the missed rent payment and only one email and lots of smart alex texts message about him chasing us down until he gets every last bit of money we owe him.

I think he forgets that at the end of the day we owe him £450 rent and he will owe us £450 bond, and its only 11 days to go until we move out, so he won't actually lose out by not paying us our bond back.

We were fully prepared to pay him the last months rent and wait for our bond back until the email from him which said we were taking up too much of his time with questions about the house and how we go about moving out, keys, deposits back, etc and that he wasn't going to spend anymore time answering any of our questions. Then we got bit worried about the deposit refund and decided to hold back to last months rent as a bit of security from our side of things. Not like we don't have the money to pay him if ordered to,because we do, but £450 is alot of money to lose if he disappears into the night once he has the keys back.

tacchan14
15-04-2009, 02:16 AM
hey man, from the length and the repetitive nature of your text, you must be very annoyed and distressed by the landlord.

Personally, I won't give it a sniff, as he is not prepared to have a face-to-face showdown with you. All he is doing is to remote-control with strong messages. The 'CCJ' (?), solicitors and forwarding addresses are reserved for a court case, which I am sure won't even be in Summer this year!

RELAX and plan your packing.

da_melonuk
27-04-2009, 23:09 PM
well, a quick update on the past posts, we are all moved out now and have posted the keys back to him in london, as the local agents never got in contact with us about inspecting the house when we moved out, the house was cleaned fully and we took pictures.

We have txt the landlord about returning the keys and the fact that the local agent never called to arrange a inspection and all he could be bothered to reply was "regards, the landlord (aka debt collector)" .

So don't expect to hear anything more from him now, and he doesn't have our new address, so thats good.