Letting to lodger: what Agreement form/wording?

[El Landlordio]

Hello there,

I am new here, I am hoping someone could have some good advice for me?

As the owner/occupier of my property, I rent out a room to a lodger. This lodger has signed a contract, (produced by this website actually) and the rent is due on 1st of every month, and a set sum is also due to cover all bills inc. council tax, TV licence etc, on the same day.

I have a deposit from this person which is the same amount as one month's rent, but not including bills. They have refused to pay the rent, saying I can keep the deposit, won't give the keys back, and refuse to pay the bills, saying they won't be there. They have given me a piece of paper they want me to sign which I obviously haven't, giving 4 weeks' notice from the 31st Jan. It also states this person will move out with immediate effect and give the keys to the property. Contradictory. The notice required in the contract from her is four weeks.

What are my rights/what should I do re: rent owed, bills money, keys, deposit etc and should I tell the council that they have moved out?

I am sorry to be so unknowledgeable, I had naively assumed the contract and deposit would cover me for all eventualities. I will be seeing the CAB tomorrow but hoped someone here could help?

Many thanks

[Jennifer_M]

I'm not sure but I think as a lodger he doesn't have to give notice to leave at any time he wants.
Not sure if an agreement makes a difference.

No doubt an expert will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Paul_f]

Jennifer is perfectly correct. This person is a lodger and as such has no security of occupation. There is no period of notice required but if you have drawn up an agreement then common law rules apply as to what you have "agreed".

[red40]

Between a lodger and a house share?

[lawstudent]

In a house share people live on equal terms as co-tenants. A lodger is not a tenant but is given the use of part of a property belonging to (or leased by) a resident landlord.

[andrewm]

I'm staying in my parents' flat, and taking on a short term lodger for a period of 8 weeks.

What is the best way to draw up the contract protecting my parents' rights? Should it be between myself and the lodger, or my parents and the lodger? If it's between my parents and the lodger, am I authorised to sign on their behalf?

To complicate things further, I don't have any formal tenancy agreement with my parents, and I could or could not be deemed a 'tenant' as I have sent them various amounts of money over the past few weeks.

I've searched for a while on the net and can't find any samples of a short term lodger's tenancy agreement, can anyone please point me to a sample or email one to me if you have one? I just want something stating the terms of the lease (payment), and deposit for breakages etc...

rgds

- andrew

[Patois]

Go to the landlordzone home page and search - the answer is there

[Paul_f]

The answer is you don't need any written agreement as a lodger has no status. It's nothing to do with landlord & tenant law and any lodger has no statutory right of occupation, so you can ask them to leave when you want without giving any notice. You might want to make clear your expectaitons of the lodger's financial committment but you need nothing more. Read up on rent-a-room relief which you will find on the HMRC website, as you don't have to declare the income under a certain (generous) amount.

[pseudonym]

Does anyone have a copy of an excluded tenancy agreement for me to look at? Thanks in advance.

[VIPER]

Hello

I have a lodger renting a room, I am wondering how long is the minimum notice i should give him?

[jeffrey]

Hello

I have a lodger renting a room, I am wondering how long is the minimum notice i should give him?

No minimum (or maximum) length is prescribed by law- but the contract into which you and lodger entered binds both of you legally, so what was agreed? Is there a written Tenant Agreement, for instance?

[MDM]

As LL I had 4 house sharers on a joint 6 month AST
One of them left after two months

Now with two months left on the AST, one of the remaining 3 has found a friend who would like to take on the room, but only for about 5 months.

The legalities of pasting her into the existing AST seem a bit complex - from what I have heard on earlier threads. Also the new person doesn't want the room long enough to start another AST with all four of them.

I haven't been demanding the shortfall in the rent so far from the remaining three because they can't afford it.

I would like

1. the remaining three to take her in as a lodger (with my permission).
2. her to ideally pay her rent directly to me, or possibly pay it to the other tenants who would then pass it on to me to make up the full rent they owe on the house.
3. the tenancy to continue as a periodic tenancy once the AST expires, with the lodger still in place.


My questions are
1. Can anyone see any problems in that arrangement ?
2. Is there anything I should do to protect myself particularly ? (for example do I need to explicitly state that her lodging cannot continue beyond the end of their tenancy)
3. What kind of agreement should she sign as a lodger - in particular how would any deposit she paid be handled ?

Your advice in this would be greatly appreciated.:confused:

[Surrey]

As LL I had 4 house sharers on a joint 6 month AST
One of them left after two months

Now with two months left on the AST, one of the remaining 3 has found a friend who would like to take on the room, but only for about 5 months.

The legalities of pasting her into the existing AST seem a bit complex - from what I have heard on earlier threads. Also the new person doesn't want the room long enough to start another AST with all four of them.

I haven't been demanding the shortfall in the rent so far from the remaining three because they can't afford it.

I would like

1. the remaining three to take her in as a lodger (with my permission).
2. her to ideally pay her rent directly to me, or possibly pay it to the other tenants who would then pass it on to me to make up the full rent they owe on the house.
3. the tenancy to continue as a periodic tenancy once the AST expires, with the lodger still in place.


My questions are
1. Can anyone see any problems in that arrangement ?
2. Is there anything I should do to protect myself particularly ? (for example do I need to explicitly state that her lodging cannot continue beyond the end of their tenancy)
3. What kind of agreement should she sign as a lodger - in particular how would any deposit she paid be handled ?

Your advice in this would be greatly appreciated.:confused:

You might find it neater to do a "deed of assignment", which will put the new person on the tenancy agreement which would then continue with its original terms and duration.

I'm pretty sure there's a link somewhere on this site but can't find it right now, but in short what you are doing is swapping the old person who's left for the new person who's coming in. ALL interested parties need to sign it to say they agree (outgoing tenant, incoming tenant, remaining tenants and landlord), and then that document forms an addendum to the existing tenancy agreement. You'd have to agree how the deposit and inventory are handled before you go down that road, but a bit of a google for deed of assignment should be worthwhile, and I suspect will be a lot less messy than having a sub-tenant (as I've found out myself recently!)

[Murdoch]

A simpler route may be to just issue a 5 month AST to the new tenant.

[Bel]

If there is already a joint AST you cannot issue a single AST to a new person; because the original tenants hold all of the property and it is up to them who they live with.

You should not accept rent directly from the "lodger" in case this upgrades their status to tenant in the eyes of the law..and it may be harder to evict them later.

Either: Make the remaining tenants know that you hold them responsible for paying all the rent;and you allow them to take a lodger. They are responsible for any damage the lodger causes. When they give notice, they will be responsible for paying all the rent until they give you vacant possession; ie the lodger must be gone when they leave or they pay all the rent. It is easy for them to evict their own lodger before they leave, but it is very hard for you to evict if the lodger stays.

OR; do a deed of assignment, with the original tenants permission, so the lodger becomes a jointly responsible tenant and liable to jointly and severally pay all the rent.

[jeffrey]

Bel is right.
An Assignment is safer than if you only "make the tenants know that you hold them responsible" which would have no legal effect at all.

[MDM]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your useful advice. I have found a deed of assignment of tenancy with the help of google and the university of london accomodation office.

I was worried about making contact with the departing tenant, who left under something of a thunderstorm. However, have successfully crossed that bridge. Should just be a few i's to be dotted and t's crossed between cup and lip now.

[arusha]

Can you have an agreement with a lodger that says they can't leave until after 6 months? My friend wants to take two lodgers in to help make ends meet but she doesn't want them to be able to leave straight away as she will be relying on the money.

I don't know much about lodgers but, I said she should be wary of giving them too many rights by accidentally creating a tenancy.

Am I right in thinking if one has a lodger, they aren't a 'tenant' and she should therefore also be wary of calling them a tenant in the agreement.

[MrShed]

Yes you can sign a 6 month agreement with a lodger. However, bear in mind this basically makes them liable for the rent for this period of time. If they leave part way through, you may have a hard job persuing them for the rent if they do not leave a forwarding address.

[arusha]

Thanks MrShed.

Anyone know where I can get a free lodger agreement? I can see plenty that you pay for but a free one would be better.

[Beeber]

[QUOTE=arusha;55623]Can you have an agreement with a lodger that says they can't leave until after 6 months? [QUOTE]

So your friend is happy that the lodger can remain in the property driving her mad for that entire period, should the relationship break down?

[cmbhappy]

One of my tenants of only a month or so has just sent me a letter to explain that my permission is sought to take in a lodger. In the letter the tenant accepts continuing full responsibility for upkeep, rent etc and that the lodger (woman and child) will be staying until further notice.

As it happens the woman and child have already moved in.

My question is: are there any key issues that I should address in my letter of response?

I'm actually quite cool about the whole thing, is that wise?

[justaboutsane]

Tenant can have guests and not need your permission so I guess this is no different. Just don't take any rent direct from the tenants guests or you could create a tenancy with them! .. Try doing a search on guests and you may well come up with some answers xx

[Surrey]

Ensure that the tenant knows he cannot give any rights that he does not have himself. For example, he can't promise that they can stay longer than he is allowed to.

It's actually pretty decent of him to tell you, so with luck it'll all be fine.

[darkfox]

When away from the country I took on 2 shorthold tenants into my only residential property. Both signed standard 6 month contracts. On returning one tenant moved out to make space for me, where I continue to live now.

Did the remaining tenant become a lodger (excluded occupier) when I moved back in? I moved in during the 6 months covered by his contract but that term has now lapsed and no new contract has been signed. Technically we share the bathroom and kitchen areas but he is never there.

I wish to serve him notice to leave and wonder whether I should treat him as a tenant or as a lodger.

[Bel]

If he was a tenant at the start, he cannot be demoted to 'lodger' status

Lodger status depends where your main residence was at all stages of this tenancy.

If you all lived together at the start of the tenancy (how long?) and you have not had a main residence in between, and you are now all living together again it sounds like he is your lodger.

If you did not live together at the start then it sounds like a tenancy.



If in doubt, treat him as a tenant, but as a residential LL, the tenancy is outside the housing act and you need to serve a 'notice to quit' (one months notice) and not a section 21 notice. If your tenant does not leave, you will need to get a court order for possession.

[missdistressed]

Hi,

I am in quite a stressful situation with a lodger - but I dont know what my rights are and whether I am being fair or not. Can anyone help?

She has lived in my house for over a year, and originally we had an informal agreement over email that she stays until one or both of us give one month notice (emails now lost). She has become a friend as well as lodger so I have never worried about this informal agreement.

A month ago she flooded the house by accident - causing thousands of pounds of damage. Luckily I have insurance - but the stress of this happening and the time/effort involved in sorting out has taken its toll and I no longer want a lodger to cause the risk of anything happening again.

I explained this to her - said there was no blame involved - but I would like her to leave as soon as she could so I could dry out her bathroom, get the workmen in, and then not have any further risk of damage.

Now, a month later, she is still here - and says that by law she can stay 2 months. When I asked about the one month agreement, she claimed to have forgotten. Also, she is now 2 and a half weeks late in her rent, and has said it is the banks fault it is late when I have asked.

Do I have the right to ask her to leave now, as per our original agreement? And/or do I have the right to insist that she pays before she goes?

Thanks for your help... look forward to hearing some views/advice as I dont know what to think except that I dont want lodgers ever again! :confused:

[Ericthelobster]

There is certainly no law which would give her the right to being given 2 months' notice (unless you had given her a contract stating that, which you haven't). She would get that if she was a tenant; however she is a lodger and has far less security than that. A months' notice does sound perfectly normal and fair - however, you haven't given specifically her a month yet, it all sounds very woolly.

Also you are now in a situation where there's nothing in writing and it's down to her word against yours, I'm not sure where that leaves you in practice.

First off, I think you need to give her a fixed deadline in writing by which you want her out (and including pointing out the date you originally asked her to leave ASAP) - until you've done that I think your hands are somewhat tied.

[missdistressed]

Thanks for your advice... It is much appreciated. :)

Even though I dont have anything formally written down we both agreed on the date I asked her to leave - and she has texted me about it confirming the specfic date - because she was convinced she had a legal right to 8 weeks from then... do you think this counts for anything?

Also, as there is no formal agreement, if a tenant is allowed 8 weeks what is a lodger allowed?

[caroline7758]

If someone takes on a lodger and gives them an AST on paper (because that's all there was in WHSmith!) does the lodger have the same rights as a tenant on an AST where the landlord isn't living in the property? Or can a lodger not have an AST?

[Beeber]

When a tenant is on a periodic tenancy agreement (which it automatically becomes when a fixed term AST expires and a new one not issued), the landlord is required to give the tenant 2 months notice timed with when rent is due. Perhaps this is the origin of the misunderstanding your lodger has where she believes she is due 2 months notice from you.

Point her in the direction of the Shelter website to explain her rights (or lack of them) as she is an excluded occupier and you only need to give her reasonable notice which can be verbal and that you can change the locks if she stays past that date.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-3132.cfm
http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-2938.cfm

This site also contains good info on lodgers

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/lodgers_rent-a-room.htm
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/lodgers_questions_&_answers.htm

I say just concentrate on getting her out.

[missdistressed]

Wow... thanks, i had no idea that lodgers had so few rights...

I will definitely send her the link and at least she will know she isnt right -
after that i guess it depends what reasonable means... and work out how to make sure she pays me (i have no bond) cos i do need the money.

Thanks again for your help :)

[johnboy]

I beleive a AST would be invalid if the landlord was living in the same property.

[johnboy]

Unless you had a writen agreement i think you could just put her stuff on the street and change the locks.

Lodgers have very very few rights

[Surrey]

However, some of the terms in an AST are more generous than a regular tenancy in an AST and you might find you have made an agreement that, even though it's not an AST, has given the lodger more rights than you might like.

[missdistressed]

Its tempting ;) but I still want to be as fair as possible...

Do you think giving her another 2 weeks (thats 6 in total since asking her to leave) is reasonable? (Also, that is when she will have paid up till when I eventually get the money she owes me).

[Bel]

2 weeks extra would be very fair; and she should appreciate you meeting her halfway.

If she gets the hump and gets sassy with you, you can change the locks immediately. Don't take any nonsense. Make it known you are doing her a huge favour.

Good luck.

[Bel]

This question has been asked before, but surprise surprise I cant find it any more on the forum.

Paul F said if an AST has been given to a lodger the whole thing should be torn up into pieces as it is rubbish.

Jeffrey said that although it actually wasn't an AST, the terms of the contract such a fixed term, notice and rent could be binding as a contract. The LL and lodger agreed to them, so they should stick by them. But it ain't an AST.


NEVER EVER USE AN AST FOR A LODGER because you give more rights of notice than you need to. Ideally, a lodger agreement should be by the week or month, with no fixed term in case they turn out to be very annoying.

[johnboy]

Get a friend or locksmith lined up ready to change locks if needed at short notice. Also you could inform the lodger in the letter if she isnt out at the end of 2 weeks her belongings will be bagged up put outside and the locks changed. (put as nicely as poss of course)

[Surrey]

DON'T bother with a locksmith, it's dead easy to do yourself, honest!

[caroline7758]

I wasactually asking this question on behalf of a tenant (lodger) rather than a landlord! It turns out thelandlord has actually used a license contract in the end, but useful answers anyway.Thanks.

[missdistressed]

I told her about the 8-week thing being wrong - and her friend has agreed to let her move in to her place in 2 weeks from now - so it hasnt been too horrible.

Also, she assures me she will pay me...

THANKS for all the advice. Much appreciated and really helpful!!

Though I am still convinced its better to be skint than to have a lodger every again!!! ;)

[infoseeker]

Hi,

I may be about to take-in a lodger at my premises.

I will ask them to to sign a lodgers agreement, which includes terms & conditions supplied by lawpack. I will also add some additional provisions, which I have found on the net.

My question is this. If a lodger is still outstanding on payment of rent (for more than the period given in the agreement) are you allowed to enter his/her room to terminate the agreement?

I ask this because this was one of the provisions given in the additional terms that I found. I know, for a tenancy agreement, you cannot enter and force a tenant to leave the premises but am not sure whether this applies to lodgers (under a license agreement) where they do not have exclusive possession?

Any advice will be greatfully received.

Cheers, G

[Bel]

Hi,

I may be about to take-in a lodger at my premises.

I will ask them to to sign a lodgers agreement, which includes terms & conditions supplied by lawpack. I will also add some additional provisions, which I have found on the net.

My question is this. If a lodger is still outstanding on payment of rent (for more than the period given in the agreement) are you allowed to enter his/her room to terminate the agreement?

I ask this because this was one of the provisions given in the additional terms that I found. I know, for a tenancy agreement, you cannot enter and force a tenant to leave the premises but am not sure whether this applies to lodgers (under a license agreement) where they do not have exclusive possession?

Any advice will be greatfully received.

Cheers, G

In your agreement, you should make it clear in advance what happens if rent is not paid. You could take a buffer of a week/months rent so that if they don't pay, you will always have a week in hand with the agreement being they are out at the end of that week. Then it will not be a shock to them when the time comes.

You never really want to get heavy with a lodger; just tell them you are terminating the agreement by x date, and if they don't clear out, simply change the locks when they are out.

You must always give "reasonable notice" to terminate. If the lodger become threatening and you do not feel safe, you have the right to terminate immediately.

You should be entitled to enter the lodgers room at anytime in the right circumstances, although you would not want to do this unless you have a good reason to do so, eg to clean it, to ventilate, inspect for maiantenance purposes, to ask them if they want a cup of tea etc, as a lodger does not have exclusive possession of anywhere in your home. If I were to take in a lodger, I would make sure they understand that they cannot shut you completely out, but at the same time you must respect their privacy. Common sense.

UPDATE: you say premesis. You can only have a lodger in your own home, otherwise it is a tenancy and the tenant is protected from eviction. So you would need a court order to evict.

[TaxationPete]

Are you doing this under the Rent a Room Scheme. ?
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/ir223.pdf
Regards Peter

[infoseeker]

In your agreement, you should make it clear in advance what happens if rent is not paid. You could take a buffer of a week/months rent so that if they don't pay, you will always have a week in hand with the agreement being they are out at the end of that week. Then it will not be a shock to them when the time comes.

You never really want to get heavy with a lodger; just tell them you are terminating the agreement by x date, and if they don't clear out, simply change the locks when they are out.

You must always give "reasonable notice" to terminate. If the lodger become threatening and you do not feel safe, you have the right to terminate immediately.

You should be entitled to enter the lodgers room at anytime in the right circumstances, although you would not want to do this unless you have a good reason to do so, eg to clean it, to ventilate, inspect for maiantenance purposes, to ask them if they want a cup of tea etc, as a lodger does not have exclusive possession of anywhere in your home. If I were to take in a lodger, I would make sure they understand that they cannot shut you completely out, but at the same time you must respect their privacy. Common sense.

UPDATE: you say premesis. You can only have a lodger in your own home, otherwise it is a tenancy and the tenant is protected from eviction. So you would need a court order to evict.



Bel, thanks again for the reply - very useful!

[Paul_f]

Bel's reply is not quite right. There is no need to have any written agreement as the lodger has no security of occupation. There is not normally a requirement to give "reasonable notice" either but if you do have written terms then you will be expected to adhere to them which might not be to your advantage sometimes

[Bel]

Bel's reply is not quite right. There is no need to have any written agreement as the lodger has no security of occupation. There is not normally a requirement to give "reasonable notice" either but if you do have written terms then you will be expected to adhere to them which might not be to your advantage sometimes

I agree with Paul that you dont need an agreement...obviously the original poster would prefer it. I always think its better when people know where they stand at the start, as it could save a lot of aggro later and trips to CAB by the aggrieved lodger.


I am sure that "reasonable notice" is required; not sure which Act its in; if I find it I'll post it. Just what reasonable notice is though, is hard to say!

[Paul_f]

Reasonable Notice doesn't apply. Lodgers have no "Act" to cover it.

[kittkatt]

Hi, i'm in the proccess of getting a lodger for the upstairs of my 2 bed house and just wanted to check a few things.

They will use the front door and will have a lockable door off the hallway upstairs leading to bedroom 1 (as a bedroom) and bedroom 2 (as a lounge with kitchen sink etc). Their bathroom is of the hallway which i will have access to but not use as i have a downstairs shower room.
Their is a door in the hallway which i will hold the key for leading to the down stairs accomadation ie my bedroom (the old dining room), kitchen, lounge and shower room. I will normally use the back door to the house as this is where my parking is.

If you can see from this description the house is already kind of split in to two flats but as i will have access to their bathroom can they still be classed as a lodger or are they a tennant?
All i am doing is changing my council tax/insurance too two people and will write up a contract, is their anything else i need to do?
Has anyone done anything similar?
I will be renting this out for £500 including all bills, how do i go about paying tax? if this is empty for 3 months of the year do i need to?
Thanks for any advice

[Bel]

If you want to keep them as 'excluded occupier' status, (with the benefit of not requiring a court order to evict) you have to share facilities. This means you must use their bathroom from time to time, and not just have 'the option' to do so.


From what you describe, it looks to be more like a common law tenancy situation, with you being a resident landlord. Of course, you can insist that they are lodgers when you take them on and this would only become a problem if they decided to fight an eviction at some future time . Its what actually happens in practice rather than what you want the situation to be that counts in law.

[kittkatt]

Thanks, will just have to use there bathroom every so often as would prefer them to just be a lodger.

[Bel]

In the strictest sense, a lodger does not have exclusive possession of any part of the property, even his bedroom. i.e. you could enter to do vacuuming without their previous consent. You could even change their bedroom if it suited you. They have a licence to occupy.

If you give them exclusive possession of a bedroom, technically it is a tenancy, although an "excluded tenancy" as you will be sharing some facilities.

Suggest you do your homework thoroughly on the subject in case any misunderstanding should arise between you.

Let them know in advance that they are excluded occupiers. Don't give them an AST agreement as its not appropriate. Let them know what will happen if they do not pay rent, what the notice period is for either side, and what you will do if they seriously annoy you.

[Spark]

Hi all,

Just looking for a bit of advice regarding a complicated situation me and my housemates have found ourselves in.

I live in a house share with 4 other people. None of these is the landlord. 1 of them has a tenancy agreement in his name although this has expired now so is a on-going tenancy??? (not sure of correct term, not as clued up as you lot seem to be! lol ) The rest of us pay him every month which he then passes on to the landlord for the rent.

1 of the housemates has become quite difficult to live with, from stealing from rooms, to violently threatening a housemate, minor sexual assault, late payments with rent etc. We have come to the conslusion we need him out but he is the kind of person that will just refuse to go and our landlord likes to keep out of things and is happy as long as the rent is paid.

We have given him a months notice which meets an end any day now however he still is here and is making no progress to move anything out. We called the police for advice how to move him as we think there will be a situation if we try to remove him. They said to find out his rights, they can only remove if he has no right to be in the property.

We have gave him 1 final week to move out and told him someone is moving into his room. After telling him this today we have had the locks changed and will not give him a key to prevent anything from being stolen while we are all out. (We think when he finds this out he will smash the window anyway)

It really is a mess :(

ANY advice at all is greatly appriciated... Or what you would do in this situation.

Thankyou

[jeffrey]

Sounds like the one with Tenancy Agreement (X) is the tenant, at least in L's eyes. If so, the other occupants might be X's sub-tenants. Only X could therefore get rid of the problematic occupant.

[Spark]

Tenant 'X' wants him out also but how do we actually go about doing this? The problem lodger seems to think he has spoken to a solicitor and only the landlord can give him the notice although we do doubt this.

[jeffrey]

But isn't X the landlord, for present purposes? So the lodger's advice could be right as, effectively, he's agreeing that X can evict him.

[Spark]

Thanks for your help and advice!

Just to sum up then, if its X's name present on the tenancy agreement then he is really the landlord for the problem lodger? Therefore the actual landlord of the property doesn't matter too much?
And also does it make a difference on the point I mentioned earlier regarding his tenancy running out so becoming this on-going tenancy? Can you make sence of this information at all?

Thanks again for the support with this :)

[attilathelandlord]

x is basically subletting the property, although if x is on the premises, then x is resident landlord and pain-in-the-butt is merely a lodger. Based on this then with sufficient notice, x can legally bag up nasty lodger's gear, change the locks and boot him out. You can't do this, only X can, as only x is control of the house.

It doesn't matter if x's contract with the actual owner has become periodic, the only thing that has ended is the fixed term, not the contract itself.

[Spark]

Best news I have had all week! Thanks for your help guys. Im sure X will be chuffed at that as well. If hes still here next wednesday his stuff will be outside.

[Bel]

Now you know your rights, call the police if you suspect he will cause havoc after he has been evicted.

[ensjr]

My dispute with my lodger, I am a homeowner renting a room.

_________________________________

In our House Share Agreement (standard agreement downloaded from a website) says:

The Term
For a minimum period of 3 months from the 25th April 2008.

Early Termination
Either party may at any time end this Agreement earlier that the end of the Term by giving to the other one months written notice to that effect or upon the expiry of said notice this Agreement shall end with no further liability for either party save for any existing breach.

The Rent
A rent of £275 per month shall be payable every 25th by equal payments in advance. The first payment will be due on the 25th April 2008 and every month thereafter on the same day in each month.

Method of Payment
The method of payment shall be made by standing order.

_________________________________

My lodger has verbally told me last night he wants to move out and is giving his notice with effect from the 13th May 2008. I appreciate this is not written notice, but my understanding was with a minimum of 3 months from 25th April I should still get 2 further months rent from him, regardless of his wish to move out sooner. His argument is that the statement in the Early Termination contradicts this, and he is now not liable for the 2months and 12days rent at £275 per month. Who is likely to win this dispute?

In addition, he has not waited until the 25th of this month to give me his notice, therefore does his notice start from the date I receive it (and the amount owed is proportioned)? Or does he still owe a full months rent at £250?

I need to resolve this as I am away over the next few days and don't want to cause further disputes as i'm scared my house would be at risk while i'm away.

Many Thanks,

ensjr

[jeffrey]

He is right. Term is three months, sure, but he has power to use break clause earlier (by giving you the required one month's notice). The Agreement does not stipulate any restriction as to the day of month on which Notice can be given. Only point in your favour: tell him that, since he wants you to comply, he must too by giving WRITTEN notice (i.e. refuse to accept his oral notice?)

[ensjr]

Can I ask what the point of having a Term in the Agreement then, if it doesnt serve a purpose? This is very frustrating considering I didnt produce this Agreement on my own and paid for such a document!

I also assume you believe the rent should be proportioned from the 25th of the month to a date 1 month after his written notice, and not a one months rent.

[jeffrey]

Can I ask what the point of having a Term in the Agreement then, if it doesnt serve a purpose? This is very frustrating considering I didnt produce this Agreement on my own and paid for such a document!

I didn't produce it either!

[jeffrey]

I also assume...that the rent should be proportioned from the 25th of the month to a date 1 month after his written notice, and not a one months rent.

Yes. The person leaving pays rent up to and including departure day, inc. apportionment to then.
NOTE that apportionment is on yearly basis:
A. Calculate rent for full year.
B. Divide A by 366 (to give daily rate).
C. Multiply B by number of days since end of last full rent month.

[ensjr]

Many thanks for your responses Jeffrey but it doesn’t look ideal for me.

I tried doing all the right things and yet he still manages to walk away with no ties at all, even though a minimum of 3 months was committed to. And doesn’t even look like I can get even one more months rent out of him either by way of lessening the blow!

I appreciate it is ambiguous, but it was agreed at the time that there would be a minimum of 3months, and I even explained at the time with a witness present what was meant by it. Does this make any difference?

[jeffrey]

It was NOT agreed re three months- else why did you allow break clause?

[ensjr]

We agreed a minimum of 3months with a months notice thereafter. I used a verbal example at the time; if he wanted to move out after 3months then he could give his notice after 2months and move out following a further month. Otherwise the continuation of the agreement would just be ongoing with a months notice prior to moving out.

My understanding of the explanation I gave at the time of signing is that although he wants to move out prior to his 3months he is committed to the 3months minimum rent, regardless of whether he is in the room or not.

[jeffrey]

We agreed a minimum of 3months with a months notice thereafter. I used a verbal example at the time; if he wanted to move out after 3months then he could give his notice after 2months and move out following a further month. Otherwise the continuation of the agreement would just be ongoing with a months notice prior to moving out.

My understanding of the explanation I gave at the time of signing is that although he wants to move out prior to his 3months he is committed to the 3months minimum rent, regardless of whether he is in the room or not.

Not what Agreement says, is it?

[ensjr]

its a bit ambigious, I accept that, it does state a minimum term though, and he's not wanting to stick to that though either.

[Imp]

Do you really want to live in the same house as somebody you are having a dispute with? If you force him to stay (and it sounds like you can't) your home is unlikely to be a nice place to be.

[ensjr]

we agreed he's out at the end of the next full month.

I'll have an Agreement written by a professional, rather than an internet download, and take more time to 'vet' potential lodgers.....assuming I can handle another one!

You can do all the checks you like, but it wont help a bit until you find out what they're like to live with!

Thanks for your help, i'll stick to this forum and follow the advice given in the various threads!

[marcusfox]

How much notice does a lodger have to give before he leaves? A deposit of
four weeks' rent has been given at the start.

No written contract exists and the term of notice was not specified, apart
from a verbal agreement to stay at least six months. Six months is almost up
though. Rent is already paid by standing order, every four weeks. Does that
mean the lodger must give four weeks notice?

Marcus

[jeffrey]

If his "rent" is paid monthly in advance, he can leave at end of a "rent" month for which he has paid.
Really, it is not rent. Lodger pays licence fee only.
As there is no written Agreement, no Notice period is otherwise required- on either side.

[ahfh1]

Firstly hello to all!

I have a lodger living with me who I want to move out because her student lifestlye doesn't mix with my professional lifestyle, but she's refusing to move. She signed a 6 month Lodger's Agreement (the one you can buy from WH Smith), which ran out last March and she's now pays rent on a rolling monthly basis.

Seeing as her agreement has expired months ago, does she still have any rights to remain in the property?

If I give my lodger a month's notice, does this have to fall on the day rent is normally paid (as is the case with tenants)?

She has also failed to pay this month's rent, instead asking me to use her 1 month's deposit to cover the rent. I don't believe I should be using the deposit to pay for rent as it should be held in cases of damage to the property or outstanding bills - am I correct on this?

Thanks

[SALL]

What does the agreement you signed, say about the length of notice you have to giver her to leave?

You sure it was a lodger agreement or tenancy agreement?

[jeffrey]

Firstly hello to all!

I have a lodger living with me who I want to move out because her student lifestlye doesn't mix with my professional lifestyle, but she's refusing to move. She signed a 6 month Lodger's Agreement (the one you can buy from WH Smith), which ran out last March and she's now pays rent on a rolling monthly basis.

Seeing as her agreement has expired months ago, does she still have any rights to remain in the property?

If I give my lodger a month's notice, does this have to fall on the day rent is normally paid (as is the case with tenants)?

She has also failed to pay this month's rent, instead asking me to use her 1 month's deposit to cover the rent. I don't believe I should be using the deposit to pay for rent as it should be held in cases of damage to the property or outstanding bills - am I correct on this?

Thanks

1. A lodger has no statutory rights under Housing Act 1988; only contractual rights.
2. Everything during fixed term therefore depended on what your written Contract stated.
3. As there are NO statutory continuations in this case, the periodic tenancy is inherently NOT the fixed term's continuation but something new- so even the written Contract is now inapplicable.

[Bel]

Bearing in mind what Jeffrey has said, and with the proviso that you do actually live at the property as your main home and share facilities with her eg kitchen or bathroom, you only need to give her "reasonable notice" to leave if there are no contractual terms.

Reasonable notice is open to interpretation. Some say use the payment period i.e. a month for monthly payment

If she has not paid you rent, then what is reasonable would be much shorter.

If she wants her deposit to pay the rent it sounds like she is getting ready to move out anyway. You could give her notice to move when this is spent, and say that you will change the locks after that day.

[ahfh1]

What does the agreement you signed, say about the length of notice you have to giver her to leave?

You sure it was a lodger agreement or tenancy agreement?

Yes, it's definitely a lodger agreement. It says that 1 month's notice must be given, but does not state that the notice has to fall on the rent payment date.

Do I also have to give a strong reason as to why she must move out, as she's arguing that students not getting along with professionals isn't a valid reason for asking her to leave.

[Mark Hessel]

Hi ahfh1

As long as you are living in there with shared facilities as BEl says then you can give her one month's notice in writing. If her next rent is due at start of July, you could in fact give her a notice now saying you will accept no further monies and that she must leave when the current month ends. Say nothing more, when month runs out change locks as soon as she leaves to go anywhere. Pack her stuff into her bags and when she can't get in hand her the bags.

She may go to the police so be ready to prove to them she was a lodger, i.e have a pile of ID ready including driving license, bills etc to show you live there, show them the notice you gave her, the agreement that you had before that and they will should) then tell her to stay away and go seek legal advice if she has any other questions.

You do not have to justify why you are evicting her at all.

[mowgs1]

Hi, this is my first post, i apologise if these questions have already been asked - i have searched through a few posts but just confused myself a bit more!

I have been renting out my spare rooms, and one of my lodgers has just decided to leave after less than 1 month in the house.

His next payment date was the 26th (next thurs), and he gave notice on the 21st (sat), that he would be leaving on the 25th (wed).

Now, as he has only given 4 days notice, and our contract states a minimum of 1 months notice, do i then take the rest of the notice out of his deposit?

Iv read through a few posts and one said that the notice period started on the payment date after notice was given - am i just confusing the issue or does the months notice start on the 21st or 26th?

I have used a year fixed contract with a break clause in it,

"Either party may at any time end this Agreement earlier than the end of the Term by giving to the other 1 months written notice to that effect and upon the expiry of said notice this Agreement shall end with no further liability for either party save for any existing breach."

this is from Clickdocs - is it acceptable to take the cost of the contract out of the deposit as an administration fee too - as it seems like a wasted £20-odd for just one months tenancy!

I want to be fair about everything, and want to make sure that the notice is calculated correctly for both parties, i just feel a little let down, as the lodger was in employment, yet left his job after 10 days to start his own business (also against one of the clauses in the contract)

"The Occupier shall use the Property for residential purposes only and shall not (nor allow others to) operate a business at the property or use it for any improper, immoral or illegal purposes."

- and i was hoping for something a little more stable!

sorry for the long first post and all the questions, hope to hear from someone soon!

[Paul_f]

As he's a lodger the only thing you need to refer to is your contract as it doesn't come under landlord and tenant law or housing law. If he's required to give you one months notice it would be from the day he gave it surely? I don't think the "rent" day has anything to do with it unless your contract states otherwise.

[mowgs1]

that was quick, thanks for that - i thought as much, but came across that somewhere and started confusing myself!

i shall calculate the notice from the 21st.

[LeCoop]

Hi

I'm new to this & have (literally) inherited a problem

I am executing my late mother's estate on behalf of her sons & daughters; she used to let rooms out to college students as a means to pay the mortgage and we still have one gent remaining.

Everything cordial for first 3 months, we have operated on the basis that although none of us live there, it's our 'home' and he is a paying guest, 4-weeks notice applicable by either party, while we look to sell the property.

I informed him last week that we were getting close to a sale and would give him 4-weeks notice between now & mid-August.

We get a note in reply, telling us that we have to serve a 21-day notice, also asking that, in future, we make prior contact each time we want to visit the property.

It seems that he had visited Walsall Council (he has recently left college, now on JobSeekers allowance & they pay his rent) and asked if they could assist in helping him to find new accomodation, as he was about to lose his current abode.

They appear to have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick and given him the advice above... not to mention a suggestion about changing the locks if we don't respect his privacy.

Reading between the lines, I suspect that Walsall Council will not lift a finger to help him until such time as he is served with an eviction notice ...and then if he chooses to stay put (which he thinks he is entitled to do, if he hasn't found a place by end of the notice period), then it will be my problem.

Can anyone advise on best steps to take to diffuse this situation, also to get Walsall Council to take some responsibility?

Before I speak to them, I would appreciate being informed of 'my' rights in this matter.

Cheers

[jeffrey]

Council presumably think (wrongly) that he's a tenant. Try explaining to them that he's not.

[justaboutsane]

Jeffrey, does the fact that he has stayed in the property after the death of the original home owner make this a tenancy now?

If not surely the executors can change the locks and boot him out that way as a normal owner occupier would if a lodger refused to leave??

[mind the gap]

[QUOTE=justaboutsane;82911]Jeffrey, does the fact that he has stayed in the property after the death of the original home owner make this a tenancy now?QUOTE]

Why should it? Squatter, more like!

[Amateurll]

Hi All,

Just looking for some advice really, got a lodger who although very pleasant is untidy and doesn't pay rent on time, when I say untidy I mean leaves plates, used cooking stuff in kitchen for days so in the end I do it, can't be arsed to empty bins or clean and rent always late ( up to a week)

If she hoovers her own room then leaves hoover in middle of hallway until I put it away, if she sweeps stuff up in her room will leave a pile of rubbish in the hallway outside with brush for days until I get annoyed and clear it up,if she wants to use wahing machine and my stuff is in there will put my stuff in a carrier bag and leave on floor even if wet

I know these are minor things and I might end up with a worse one, any advice from people who have had or have lodgers? Should I just chill out? and yes before you ask I have had words gently,

[jeffrey]

You are resident L, and lodger also occupies. So she has no security but only a licence which is revocable by you. Really, your question is asking for practical advice rather than what the law would hold in your circumstances. The answer depends on how tolerable/intolerable you find her presence/conduct; and how much of a pain the late payments of licence fee are to you.

[Paul_f]

If she hoovers her own room then leaves hoover in middle of hallway until I put it away.
What if your "Hoover" is an Electrolux, Dyson or Panasonic? Can they all "hoover" or are they better at vacuum cleaning?

[siu99djd]

I have a lodger who signed a lodger tenancy agreement allowing 1 months written notice for either party to to bring the contract to an end.
However, due to my lodger's behaviour I'd like to get rid of him now or at worst not have him here longer then another week. Apart from doing some really annoying and costly things like leaving lights on all day and all night, leaving the TV on and going to his room, he's proving time after time he can't be trusted with fire safety and household security by repetitively putting his pans of food on the stove on the max setting then going to his room and leaving it to burn so that the house is smoked out etc. twice I've found that he's left the iron on all day long, once he left the oven on all night long with food in it. I've spoken to him many times about these things, asking him not to do it, warning him, giving him a good telling off and every time he says he'll try extra hard next time.
However, last night was the final straw when I came in he wasn't there and the stove was left on max (nothing on it) but a pan was next to it with a spatula hanging out melting and the rear french doors were not just unlocked but actually open. My lodger didn't come back in for several hours. He's knows I've been broken in to twice, he even spoke to me 3 days ago about household security as he thought the area wasn't the greatest but I can't trust him in my house. Can I evict him within the week even though the contract says 1 months notice?

[Paul_f]

Your contract stipulates what you can and can't d so I suggest you follow it, however, if your lodger is committing acts that are clearly dangerous and a fire risk he is probably in breach of his duty of care to you, so if you were to evict him immediately he would have to take court action to obtain damages, and is this likely?

[Bel]

I wouldn't want this person in my house either. He is a liability. Your safety and sanity is worth more than a court would make you pay in compensation, which is not likely to happen anyway.


Give him notice to the end of the week and say you are serious. Refund any unused rent. Change the locks if he is not out by then.

Document his and your actions in diary form ; any behaviour that has been amiss in case he does take you to court for breach of contract. If he is your lodger, you cannot be charged with unfair eviction as he is not protected by the Protection from Eviction Act

[siu99djd]

Thanks for the replies. He's now saying that he may move out on then 7th day of the week's notice but he expects his deposit back there and then in full or he's not going to leave. He said he doesn't want a drawn out affair of having to get in contact with me, trying to call me or come around and see me trying to get his deposit back. The thing is, I've no intention of keeping it, I just want to keep hold of it for a period of time to make sure I'm covered for excessive use of the phone, electricity, gas which I can't do until the bills come in. I told him that and he's insisting I need to contact the phone company and utility companies on the night to get updates on the bill so I can give him the deposit back there and then. I don't know where I stand and I'm off on holiday the next day so I'm definitely getting the locks changed but if come Wednesday evening he won't go, what can I actually do? I've tried calling multiple CABs over the last few days with no answer and I'm running out of time. Any help is appreciated. Thanks

[Paul_f]

As the arrangment is a private one between you and the lodger then it would probably be reaonable to retain his deposit until you receive the utility accounts, but you could ask them to provide you with an interim account if you were to explain the circumstances.

[attilathelandlord]

If you've got a meter for gas and electricity it's very easy to take a reading and work out the actual cost of what you've used by using the tariffs set out on the bill.

If he's not gone by the end of the week, wait till he's out, put his stuff in a bag and change the locks.

[Bel]

You must not physically force him out but you could get the Police round if he doesn't go quietly.

Atillah's idea is good, or you could compromise and give most of his deposit back and retain a reasonable sum to allow for over use of services if you decide to wait for the bill.

[Telometer]

Two sisters own a 2-bed flat.

One of the sisters ('1') is not living there, and has let "her" room to a friend, who has signed an AST. The other sister ('2')continues to live there.

Is "friend" T or lodger?

I personally doubt that 1 has the right to grant a tenancy over a part of the flat without the consent of 2.

Cheers!

[jeffrey]

A. L1 and L2 own- so, yes, only both can let the whole.

B. Neither has an individual tenancy, of course, so neither has anything owned solely and capable of being sublet.

C. L1 might have created a licence (personal permission for T to occupy) but that's not:
a. a tenancy of any sort, whether AST or otherwise; nor
b. binding on L2.

D. Which one are you?

[Telometer]

Thanks.

I am a third party, so nothing to do with the setup. (Which is currently perfectly amicable.)

When you mention that it is not binding on L2, presumably it is no more - or less - binding on L2 than would be any sort of lodger?

[jeffrey]

Thanks.

I am a third party, so nothing to do with the setup. (Which is currently perfectly amicable.)

When you mention that it is not binding on L2, presumably it is no more - or less - binding on L2 than would be any sort of lodger?
Not binding because L2 was not a party to arrangement.

[Telometer]

Thanks, fair point. But a lodger arrangement is only binding in so far as that it can be terminated at a moment's notice.

[jeffrey]

Thanks, fair point. But a lodger arrangement is only binding in so far as that it can be terminated at a moment's notice.
That depends on the terms agreed. L letting to lodger could grant contractual right to reside for two years- which would bind both parties.

[Telometer]

Interesting, thanks.

Anyway, the AST is of no value whatsoever, and T resides there under informal verbal licence?

[jeffrey]

Interesting, thanks.

Anyway, the AST is of no value whatsoever, and T resides there under informal verbal licence?
Yes, unless L2 (still resident) either:
a. joined in the letting; or
b. had appointed L1 to ask as her informal agent.
Even then, as L2 resides, it could not be an AST. It would be only a contractual letting.

[Bel]

Anyway, the AST is of no value whatsoever, and T resides there under informal verbal licence?


My understanding:

When a LL gets a lodger to sign an AST (due to ignorance of LL) it cannot be an AST in law, but the contractual terms therein may still have weight...i.e. the term may be for the fixed period stated, at the rent stated and the other terms, such as notice stated. The whole contract can not be disregarded just because it is wrong to say it is an AST when it is not.

So do you say that because L2 did not give permission that the contract is void, Jeffrey? And so the lodger can be asked to leave at any time, and this will not breach the contract (because its invalid)?

Or the contract remains valid and enforceable, but L2 can sue L1 for compensation for any loss due to lodger living in home?

Can lodger sue L1 if lodger forced to leave before end of contractual term

[AndyJohnson]

i have a lodger in my flat, he hasnt been paying his rent, i gave him one months notice and he's still there - can i through him out? or do i need to go through the courts?

thank you in advance

[johnboy]

Lodgers dont normally have too many rights. Was any sort of contract done? If not you could just pack his stuff up and put it in the street then change the locks.

[AndyJohnson]

an AST was signed some time ago

will this make a difference?

thanks

[johnboy]

A ast is not valid for a lodger but certain aspects of it may be.

Other members may be more knowledgeable.

Jeffery is the man to ask

[Paul_f]

No you can chuck him out when you like if you agreed he was entitled to a months Notice. Law of L & T doesn't apply. He's a lodger, not a tenant.

[jeffrey]

Only the owner (O) can let, whether O does this in person or via A.
L1 is one of two owners (joint with L2).
So L1 cannot let.

[AustralianGuy]

I took on an unemployed couple who turned out to be unemployed. I was in a bit of a hurry and the guy said he was working. I did not meet his girlfriend until after they moved in the following Monday (7th July, 2008). It turned out neither of them worked but said the council would be paying them housing benefit. Naive me thought 'no worries' as I am happy for any money.

To cut a long story short, three months have passed, no money has been paid to me (the law recently changed with the council paying the rent allowance to the tenants/lodgers rather than direct to the landlord) and the lodgers have run a riot. They keep a dog in the room, smoke and have thieved food and belongins from myself and my other long-term lodger. No matter what either of us said, they stil kept it up and became quite aggressive. We even had to call the police on one occasion.

Now is your time, fellow landlords, to call me a stupid, naive fool, because my landlord acquaintances have all called me that (plus worse!) for taking on DSS, or HB, as they are known as these days.

My excuse is impatience and also a lack of knowledge as I have only lived in the UK for five years. However, an honest mistake has turned into a nightmare.

To the crux of the story, I consulted a firm that provides legal assistance to landlords for a fixed fee (using locally-based solicitors). I explained the situation and they said I needed to pursue a Section 8 notice because the lodgers had not paid rent for over two months. They seemed to not realise they were lodgers and not tenants and I too was not sure of the difference between the two legally. They were given an eviction notice, four weeks later a County Court case (they did not show up) and the judge was surprised at my situation. He said the tenants were just lodgers and I should not have had to go to court and wait so long. He nevertheless gave them one week's notice (instead of the usual two) to vacate. If they do not leave by the 7th October, I can organise the court bailiffs to chuck them out. However, the firm told me it could take 2 to 3 weeks due to the amount of evictions taking place. In other words, end of October.

On the contrary, I have read and been told I could change the locks/demand they get out/whatever myself. Is that the case?

What is the real deal here? No one seems to know, or want to give me, the real answer here.

For the record, I am not a businessman, just a guy who needs to rent couple of rooms to help pay my way.

[ram]

judge said the tenants were just lodgers and I should not have had to go to court and wait so long.

According to posts here, Lodgers in your house have no rights, just throw them out, provided you did not write any contracts ? You did'nt, did you ?

Others will verify what you can do to get lodgers out

R-a-M

[AustralianGuy]

Thank you for that R a m.

I did originally have a tenancy agreement but I found out later that because these people were lodging, the agreement was null and void. Not only that, they signed one copy only - and then lost it. The local council saw no copy of it, I never found it and I could only give my word that an agreement had been seen and signed. I never get people to sign six-month agreements either. I keep it as a monthly. Either way, it was worthless to anyone and they probably did me a favor by losing it!

I spoke to the male lodger and told him he and his girlfriend had to leave on the 7th and he agreed. I also stated I will have some friends present to witness them leaving. They are not acting as heavies but to make sure these two lodgers don't do anything dangerous or illegal or witness to the police if they do anything bad. Once they both leave the house, I will change the lock.

At the end of the day, they have cost me a lot of money not just in non-paid rent but in court fees, theft and some damage. I think I have learnt a valuable lesson and appreciate the superb advice people give here.

[ram]

I spoke to the male lodger and told him he and his girlfriend had to leave on the 7th and he agreed.

At least you have a court order ( I assume one was issued ) and if they don't comply to a court order, they can be arrested.

How you do it I don't know, but would be nice for you to know their forwarding address, in case they damage anything on the way out, for spite ( oh yes they do ) but they can give you any address they like, it does not have to be the correct one, so maybe one of your friends could follow at a distance to see where they end up / ( Discretely of course )

Saying they will go, and actually going are two different things, so make sure you have friends there. In fact, if you have a court order, phone local cops, and ask for a policeman to attend, as you think there could be trouble with the eviction ( They usually attend )

Best of luck
( Yes, there is good information on here, mine is a bit rough sometimes, ( Note:- Sometimes ) but fight fire with fire if all else fails when the law favours the guilty, or landlords or tenants are "Taking the Piss" )


R-a-M

[AustralianGuy]

Yes, I did get the court order, which the judge gladly gave. I agree totally about having some friends there as witnesses. Your recommendation of calling for a police officer's presence is an excellent idea. Co-incidentally, my girlfriend also mentioned something similar.

To add to the story, just a couple of days ago the two lodgers were having a row in their room and it sounded serious. We wondered if they guy had hit the girl. I went upstairs and banged on the door and asked them to keep the noise down. After all, it was 3am Sunday morning! The girl swore at me and disappeared into her room. I saw she had some nasty bruises to her face and a cut lip. The guy then flew off the handle at me and tried to grab/hit me but I got out of the way. He then refused to leave on the 7th (court order) and threatened me.

I guess this adds to the nightmare. However, if they do refuse to leave on that date, at least I have the court order and the baliffs to fall back on. Too bad it apparently takes 2 - 3 weeks for that to happen.

I think there is an ongoing lesson here - be VERY careful who you let stay in your house! Also, avoid HB (DSS) people like the plague.

[AustralianGuy]

Well, continuing on with the saga, the date of the eviction has arrived (7th October, as the judge ordered) and the lodgers have refused to budge. I expected that anyway because they got aggressive and threatening and refused point blank to go when the date arrived.

I now have to call my solicitors to arrange the court bailiffs. They said it could/would take 2 to 3 weeks for them to show up and evict he lodgers.

*Please see my new post in regard to bailiffs.

[ram]

Well, continuing on with the saga, the date of the eviction has arrived (7th October, as the judge ordered) and the lodgers have refused to budge.

Your lodgers can be arrested for failing to comply to a court order.

Correct me if i am wrong.

One thing people CANNOT do, is ignor a court order.

Therefore inform the police that you have a court order, and your lodgers are refusing to obey a court order.

..

[jax2503]

Hi,

What to do is call the police and speak to the local community police officer advise him you are doing an eviction of your lodger, advise him you have a court order and you dont want him to evict the tenant. You just need him there to prevent a breach of the peace and any other criminal acts that might occur. The police cant evict anyone they can only be there to prevent a breach of the peace. This can be done on an appointment basis, the police will call down to you at lets say the start of their shift and then you evict the tenant. If the tenant kicks off the police lock em up. GREAT SATISFACTION!!!!!!

Dont wait 3 or 4 weeks, just evict now.

Jax

[marapt]

Hello all,

I hope someone can help me.
When I first moved to the uk on 2nd August 2007 I rented a room as a lodger.
At the time we agreed on a rent of 325 pounds month and 100 pounds deposit and one month notice to leave. I was given a rent booklet.
I have respected all the rules and we get along ever since I moved in but I really believe its time to move on now.

Therefore, on the 18th November I said to my landlord I was thinking of moving in January and she was very upset, nevertheless, we agreed I would leave in the end of our agreement period the 2nd January. The next day she wrote me a letter saying she was giving me 4 weeks notice from that day on and I'd have to leave on 20th December. Also I would pay her 205 pounds and she would return the deposit of 100 pounds in full 7 days after; should all be ok in the room.
So my question is: Is this legal? Can she put me out before the date we had already agreed? How legal is the letter she wrote to me? Can she keep hold of my deposit for 7 days?

I would like to agree with her that when I get out she can check the room with me and give me my deposit back and I will give her the keys. This because I believe she will not give me my deposit back just because she's upset that I'm leaving.

Please let me know what rights do I have here...I want to do things legally but I do not agree my landlord should make my life harder in the house or keep my deposit just because she's upset.

What shall I do...

[Paul_f]

Unless you have some other written terms than the 'letter' then as a lodger you have no other rights of occupation. The letter might indicate terms but unless it's detailed then you will have to argue your rights on that basis. The Housing Acts and Landlord & Tenant Acts do not apply.

[mind the gap]

Marapt, although your landlady is acting unprofessionally, she is not acting illegally; your rights as a lodger are very limited, I'm afraid.

All you can do is ask explain to your landlady that you need the money the day you leave and that you wouold be grateful if she would return it after she has carried out the inspection on the day you move out.

If she refuses, all you can do is wait the 7 days, then begin an online claim for your deposit using moneyclaim online - it's quite straightforward and the chances are that once you tell her you are doing that, she will pay up (otherwise she could end up in court paying evn more and with a county court judgement against her).

What is really imprtant is that you take some photos of the room the day you move out - as many as you can to show the state of it. However, unless she issued and you signed a detailed inventory when you moved in (did she?) I do not think she can keep any of your deposit anyway - she would have no proof of who did any damage which she claims has been done in the room. So, even if she says she is keeping some/all of your deposit to cover 'cleaning and damage', refuse to accept that and file your claim anyway. You would have a good case for getting it all back, I believe. Come back to this forum for help if you need it.

Presumably the £205 is the rent owing up to the day you move out? It's not an extra charge, is it? Please explain.

Good luck with finding somewhere else to live.

[marapt]

Dear all,

Thank you for your prompt replies. I have already tried to get some advice from the Citizenship Advise Bureau but seems very hard to get in touch with them but I'll keep trying.
I did not receive a list of things in the room when I moved in but I'm sure all is in same conditions as I have always played fair with her and it was my "home" for more than a year.
I'll intend to pay the 205 pounds which seems reasonable as this would be the amount for the days I'm staying...
I would feel safer though if I could substract to that money the 100 pounds deposit but I have been looking for rules and laws and I believe I can't do that. Therefore, I'll follow the advise of Mind the Gap asking the money before I leave and claim for it after should she refuse to pay.
I regret this situation and would prefer to solve this as smoothly as possible but I also believe that despite she can be doing this legaly there is a lack of a human an moral value which I seriously regret.

Thank you for your answers and time they were of great help.

[mind the gap]

Thank you for your answers and time they were of great help.

You're welcome, marapt. I'm only sorry your landlady is treating you like this - it's not a very good introduction to a new country. As you say, she lacks decency. Most UK landlords are not like that and I hope you have a nicer one next time.

The Citizens Advice Bureau may well be closed at weekends - try Monday morning?

[Bel]

Marapt

Bear in mind that you may want a reference from her one day, maybe for another tenancy.

It will be worthwhile keeping things as amicable as possible, but equally, you should expect the return of the deposit after 7 days if you have kept your room nice.

[marapt]

Thank you for your advice.

I believe comunication is definitly the way.
I think things were far beyond I expected with regards to my move out.
I have get along with my landord for more than a year and due to the respect I have for her I intended to let her know as soon as possible that I was thinking of moving so that she could prepare for a new lodger..but when we spoke I still hadn't decided...anyway she was upset and wanted to raise a discussion.
I told her I meant to cause no problems or have a disagreement.
She pressured me for a date and we ended up agreeing on moving out the 2nd January. However, the next day I told her it was a bit unfair that she pressured me for a date as I still didn't know and I'd like to just give her notice 4 weeks before I move out as agreed. I was worried...
At this point she went mad and told me 4 weeks work both ways and she would now give me 4 weeks notice...and we had a disagreement as I told her that wasn't fair and she was only doing that 'cause she was upset...to which she replied "I don't care" and the next morning I had a letter for me saying I had to leave until the 20th and pay the rent (205 pounds) and she would give me the deposit 7 days after...

Today I tried to talk to her. I said I apologised if there was something I did to upset her but that I intend to take things in a nice and friendly way. Told her maybe we both needed to learn from this situation as I was far to believe this would end this way.
Told her nothing changes I'm still moving out an all but I would like things to be calm and peacefull for both of us until I move out.
I asked her if I could give her contacts for future references and if she would be ok with checking the room and paying me the day I leave...she said she is stiking to what she said in the letter. She mentioned being sick and having a depression due to other things in her life!? Told her I always wanted to play fair and even told her if I have a place to move sooner I don't mind leaving sooner and she can put someone in as well. I really don't want to be here anymore...

She said she will give references and help me as she can in that matter and that she agrees to do things in a nice way but she will keep the deposit for the 7 days (and that in fact she could keep it for 1 month ????) in case something needs to be fixed. I told her she can check the room ...but I stopped there and said I respect her decision.

I will trust her and wait for the 7 days...but honestly I think she may have money problems and she doesn't intend to pay me. I can assure the room is in very good conditions and I'll make sure I clean it perfectly before I leave.
100 pounds may not sound a lot but if this is not just about money, it's about good sense and respect and justice! I don't know if this means nothing in the UK but it means a lot where I come from. I'm trying to be reasonable here and its not easy. I just want what I'm entitled to without having to fight for it.
Seriously, I'm shocked with the kind of attitude one can have...

I'm sorry for the long e-mail...I'm getting desperate here :(

[Bel]

You have done well by keeping calm here. She has her reasons to act the way she does; don't take it personally. By your kind example you are helping her.

Realise that as long as you do your best you can do no more. Don't fret about changing what is not changable regarding the deposit; you will have to just see what happens. Whatever happens you will be OK.

Contact Shelter about your situation as they will be able to advise you of your rights regarding alternative housing if you find that you cannot get new accomodation, and you become homeless if she refuses to let you stay on after the date. Then you will have a back-up plan. Tell them about your fears for the deposit. If there is trouble, they may talk to her on your behalf.

[sagi_1001]

hi, i am a landlord and i have rented one of my property to a family but they were sub leting one of the room with out my permision. But they were paying the rent on time and had a good relation as tenants. Now they have moved out but the couple and the child have not moved out from the room and they are refusing to pay rent or vacate the property.

i have never delt with them in the past and they dont have any agreement to stay there. They dont even have the rent slip to say they have payed the money to previous tenant.

please tell me where do i stand?

[jeffrey]

Why do you use the word 'lodger'? Lawful T has left. Is T's tenancy actually ended?
The occupiers are trespassers, so far as you are concerned, and you need to evict them- but only by possession proceedings, not forcibly.

[Bel]

hi, i am a landlord and i have rented one of my property to a family but they were sub leting one of the room with out my permision. But they were paying the rent on time and had a good relation as tenants. Now they have moved out but the couple and the child have not moved out from the room and they are refusing to pay rent or vacate the property.

i have never delt with them in the past and they dont have any agreement to stay there. They dont even have the rent slip to say they have payed the money to previous tenant.

please tell me where do i stand?

You need to make your original tenants understand they are still liable for rent until they give you back your house without their subtenants.

[marapt]

Hello all again,

I'd like to thank you for all your help so far and wish I did not have to ask for your advise once again.
Despite my attempts of doing this the best I could I now face the situation I predicted. My landorld refuses to give me my money back. More than that she is changing the situation in order to look into her favor.

After our discussion or first days of notice I have talked to her saying I intended to take things on a friendly basis as usual. I asked her if she could check the room with me before I leave and pay me my deposit back the day I'd move out. She refused. I told her I'd wait but still would want her to check the room with me before I move out, also told her I had found a home and I was asked for my previous landord contact details for references and asked her permission to give her contacts and nothing else. She said ok.

On the 15th I moved most of my things and cleaned the house as I was leaving on holidays to Portugal on the 20th. That last week I tried to speak with her several times and told her again I did not understand why she would not give me my deposit when I'd leave and also that I'd want her to check the room with me ...she said she would not give me my money until she inspected the room throughly...I was worried. I knew from the very beginning this lady has no good will of sorting this peacefully or even give me back my money. Therefore, on that last week before I move out I tried to send a e-mail as peacefull as anyone could read asking her to check the room and sign a paper confirming all was ok in the room and if not also presenting any concerns regarding room damaging if any. I told her if she refused to do this or to check the room with me I would not accept an future claims regarding any concerns she may present after I leave. Also told her if she would refuse to pay my deposit back I would not take this easily and would persue this until the small claim court if necessary.
As I expected her reply was harsh and exagerated. She said she was disgusted with my e-mail and that she would send a representative instead of being there. After this 7 days I waited she now tells me the representative costed 57 pounds and the room carpet/furniture stains damage is about 125 pounds for cleaning...she claims she will accept 100 pounds deposit and we end this here??????????????
The stains in carpet and furniture she claims needing 125 pounds for cleaning were already there when I first moved in. I know this may seem typical but its the pure truth and I just regret I do not knew this could be happening to me otherwise I'd taken pictures from the 1st day I moved in. I came from Portugal without even seeing the room or aving any pictures. I trusted this lady and she is taking advantage from my lack of knowledge of the English culture and I only regret that I have such a bad example of the English culture and people as this lady nerves is appaling to me.
I can drop this matter but I don't want to because I find it appaling what this lady is doing. I do want my money because its not fair to be blamed by damages already existent in the room before I moved in. But more impotantly I want to stop people like me to be misleaded and sacked like this! This lady should be called attention as what she is dong is totally wrong and English should not let people like her to give such a bad impression of their culture and people.

I'm sorry to let myself carry away...please do let me know what I can do...its my word against her...and the representative said I'm the one to prove the room was already damaged when i moved in???? Can this be truth? I have no photos from when I moved in only when I moved out...there was no inventory list and I was never told I had a week to present a list with any dislikes to the landlord...should I know this or should I be told this when i moved in? I was really surprised to know that its up to me to prove the room was damaged when I moved in and not the other way around. I did not expected to have this problem when I moved in...otherwise I would be better prepared...if possible...'cause with people like this I think you can never be prepared enough!

Please help me. Thank you.

[Preston]

Hi

To know exactly what your legal position is, its important to have a few more details about your arrangements. Firstly and most importantly, have you actually moved out?

If you havent, do you have a room that is exclusively for your use and which the landlord is not allowed to enter without your permission?

Do you share any living accommodation with the landlord (living room or kitchen)?

Does the landlord provide any other services, such as cleaning of your room, cooking for you, etc?

Subject to your answers to the above questions, you are likely to be what is called an excluded tenant or an excluded licensee. Because you have agreed with the landlord, at the start of the letting, that you are entitled to a month's notice, then she must give you this notice before you have to leave. Unfortunately, if you are "excluded" then the notice need not be in writing - though she must be able to prove that she has given you this notice if ever she is challenged. Were you non excluded, however, then you would be entiteld to written notice - hence the importance of the questions I've outlined above.

She can only deduct from the deposit for items which the deposit was agreed to cover. In the absence of a written agreement it can be difficult for either party to prove this, unfortunately. However, her agent is wrong to say that it is down to you to prove that no damage has taken place - it is very much down to her. Your remedy, if she does deduct any sums which you are unhappy with, is to sue her for the amount you do not think is fair.

Anyway, hope this helps

Preston

[Bel]

Go to a Citizens Advice Bureau or Law Centre to see if they can help you claim back the deposit. They may write a letter on your behalf

If you are prepared to claim using the court process, you will be wise to write a 'letter before action' informing her of your intentions and giving her 7 or 14 days to pay before you apply to the court.

Good luck.

Keep us posted

[twosheds]

had a lodger in my house (no agreement) I told get out, can i change the locks tommorrow morning!

[Poppy]

Few questions first.


Do they pay rent monthly or weekly?
When did you tell the lodger to leave?
What is the reason for wanting them to leave?

The members will come up with a balanced response when you answer.

[twosheds]

Do they pay rent monthly or weekly? w
When did you tell the lodger to leave? 1 month
What is the reason for wanting them to leave? want them out of my house

[Poppy]

If I've understood you correctly, this lodger has known for a whole month that you want them to leave. In that case, I see no reason why you should not deny them access from "tomorrow morning" and change the locks. Make sure you give them their belongings.

Next time, if you want a future weekly rent lodger to leave and you have no particular notice agreement, I think it is reasonable to give that person a week's notice.

[Preston]

had a lodger in my house (no agreement) I told get out, can i change the locks tommorrow morning!

Hi

The most important question is whether the individual has a tenancy or a licence.

All of the following advice assumes that you share some living accommodation with the occupant, e.g. a living room, kitchen or bathroom. If you do not, please say because this will substantially affect their legal status.

They will almost certainly have a tenancy if:

a) they have exclusive possession of part of the premises e.g. a bedroom, perhaps with a lock on it, which they have control over and which you are not allowed to enter without their permission
b) they pay rent and
c) their is a period to their occupancy e.g. they pay rent weekly or monthly and
d) you do not provide any additional special services such as cleaning or cooking and
e) there was an intention to create legal relations between you.

From what you have said, my guess is that b, c and e above apply; you will need to give more information about a and d to be sure on these.

If the individual is a tenant then you must give notice to them and this must be at least four weeks, ending on the last day of a period of the tenancy. This need not be in writing, but it is a good idea to give it in writing.

If they are a licencee, then you need only give reasonable notice. Unfortunately, there is no clear definition of what would constitute a reasonable period. However, if this is their home and unless you have a very compelling to get them out immediately, my guess is that notice to leave by tomorrow morning would not be considered reasonable by a court.

So, be very careful and maybe seek more advice if you are unsure.

Preston

[foxuk]

Hi there, I'm a residential flat tenant and I have formal agreement with my 2 lodgers as a resident landlord. I decided to give a notice to one in writing. The case is she was in holiday and went back to London on 4th/Jan but I could spoke and give to her the notice on 7th/Jan because I've waited politely her birthday on 6th/Jan. I've dated the notice letter 2nd/Jan and she signed. Now she asking me to by email to confirm to her that I gave her the notice on 7 and not on 2nd as the letter is dated. The problem is she pay the rent every 1st day of the month, and her rent is valid till 31st Jan, than I feel that she want those 30 days in full as the letter says ending on 6th Feb, what I need to do? Is she right? I need wait for 6 Feb and lose 1 week or she needs to pay that week? can I discount from her deposit? Thanks for your advice.

[Preston]

Hi
If the individual is a tenant then you must give notice to them and this must be at least four weeks, ending on the last day of a period of the tenancy. This need not be in writing, but it is a good idea to give it in writing.


Hi, sorry, just realised that your tenant pays rent monthly, so I should have said the minimum notice period is one month not four weeks, unless you both had previously agreed a shorter period of notice.

Preston

[Preston]

Hi

I'm not completely clear on the circumstances, so there are a few things to get clear:

a) do you share any living accommodation with the lodgers, such as lounge, kitchen, bathroom? It sounds like you do.

b) does the lodger have a tenancy? What does your formal agreements say - is it called a tenancy agreement? A tenancy will normally be implied by the law where:

the occupant has exclusive possession of part of the premises e.g. a bedroom, perhaps with a lock on it, which they have control over and which you are not allowed to enter without their permission
they pay rent and
there is a period to their occupancy e.g. they pay rent weekly or monthly and
the landlord does not provide any additional special services such as cleaning or cooking and

If they are not a tenant, they will be a licensee.

c) what does your formal agreement say about the period of notice which you must give?

To give you an example, if you do share accommodation and the person is a tenant, then they are called an excluded tenant. The notice they are entitled to is at least one period of the tenancy (whch is probably a month as you have said that rent is payable monthly) or a shorter period if you have both agreed to this in your original formal agreement.

If they are a licensee, the notice you must give is the longer of whatever is in the formal agreement or what is "reasonable". Unfortunately, the term reasonable is not defined in this context, but I would guess that the 3 or 4 weeks that I think you are proposing would be sufficient in this case - but you might like to clarify exactly how much notice you are suggesting?

As an aside, you generally cannot backdate formal notices, unless i ndoing so you are confirming an agreement that has already been reached.

There is a very good leaflet on this subject, just google "Letting rooms in your home; a guide for resident landlords".

Hope this is helpful

Preston

[foxuk]

I am the tenant and she is my lodger. I have a lodger agreement with her and the notice period is 1 month notice.
The point is I gave her notice on 7th Jan. The rent was payed till 31st Jan, between 1 to 7 Feb she needs pay me the rent?

[Preston]

I am the tenant and she is my lodger. I have a lodger agreement with her and the notice period is 1 month notice.
The point is I gave her notice on 7th Jan. The rent was payed till 31st Jan, between 1 to 7 Feb she needs pay me the rent?

Well, if she is a tenant you need to give her notice of at least a month and it should end on a rent day or the day before i.e. 28th Feb or 1st March.

If she is a licensee and your agreement just says one month with no requirement to coincide with rent days then it can expire on 7th of month and yes she will be liable for the rnt up to that day.

Preston

[foxuk]

Thanks Preston, yes she is a licensee and I will explain to her that she is liable for the rent up to that day.

[Paul_f]

This is rather overcomplicating the problem. This person is a lodger and therefore only entitled to whatever has been agreed between tenant and lodger. It doesn't even have to be in writing (although there is no submission by the OP that it was).

Remember lodgers have no rights under the Housing Acts or Landlord & Tenant Acts or security of occupation.

[Preston]

This is rather overcomplicating the problem. This person is a lodger and therefore only entitled to whatever has been agreed between tenant and lodger. It doesn't even have to be in writing (although there is no submission by the OP that it was).

Remember lodgers have no rights under the Housing Acts or Landlord & Tenant Acts or security of occupation.

Sorry, I dont understand what is rather over complicating the problem?

Preston

[Paul_f]

I just thought that a simple reply to the OP along th lines of what I posted would have sufficed. Didn't mean to tread on your toes!

[Preston]

I just thought that a simple reply to the OP along th lines of what I posted would have sufficed. Didn't mean to tread on your toes!

Hi,

You certainly shouldn't - and I'm sure you don't - worry about treading on my toes!

I do think, though, that the answers given to resident landlord type questions often miss key points, namely that whether the person is a tenant or a licensee and whether they are excluded or non excluded (under the Protection from Eviction Act 1977) have a fundamental bearing on the occupier's legal rights. If this OP's "lodger" had been a tenant, for example, then the notice she has given would be invalid.

Preston

[Bel]

Hi

The most important question is whether the individual has a tenancy or a licence.

All of the following advice assumes that you share some living accommodation with the occupant, e.g. a living room, kitchen or bathroom. If you do not, please say because this will substantially affect their legal status.

They will almost certainly have a tenancy if:

a) they have exclusive possession of part of the premises e.g. a bedroom, perhaps with a lock on it, which they have control over and which you are not allowed to enter without their permission
b) they pay rent and
c) their is a period to their occupancy e.g. they pay rent weekly or monthly and
d) you do not provide any additional special services such as cleaning or cooking and
e) there was an intention to create legal relations between you.

From what you have said, my guess is that b, c and e above apply; you will need to give more information about a and d to be sure on these.

If the individual is a tenant then you must give notice to them and this must be at least four weeks, ending on the last day of a period of the tenancy. This need not be in writing, but it is a good idea to give it in writing.

If they are a licencee, then you need only give reasonable notice. Unfortunately, there is no clear definition of what would constitute a reasonable period. However, if this is their home and unless you have a very compelling to get them out immediately, my guess is that notice to leave by tomorrow morning would not be considered reasonable by a court.

So, be very careful and maybe seek more advice if you are unsure.

Preston

Is the 4 weeks minimum notice you speak of from "The Protection from Eviciton ACt" ?

In which case it will not apply to a "tenant" if the tenant shares occupation with a LL within the house, as I understand it. Tenants are excluded from the act if they share with LL even though bedroom may be their own.

[Preston]

Is the 4 weeks minimum notice you speak of from "The Protection from Eviciton ACt" ?

In which case it will not apply to a "tenant" if the tenant shares occupation with a LL within the house, as I understand it. Tenants are excluded from the act if they share with LL even though bedroom may be their own.

No, the minimum period in the OP's case was a month because that it what it said in his agreement - for some reason when I first wrote the reply I thought he had said the rent was payable four weekly, but I corrected this in post #6.

I agree with you, that for excluded tenancies there is no four week minimum. For excluded tenancies, unless the agreement says otherwise, notice must must be at least the length of the tenancy period and end on the first or the last day of the period.

Preston

[Bel]

Hi again Preston





For excluded tenancies, unless the agreement says otherwise, notice must must be at least the length of the tenancy period and end on the first or the last day of the period.

Preston



Is this common law 'rules'? or on what basis can this be demanded if the agreement is silent?

[Preston]

Hi again Preston
Is this common law 'rules'? or on what basis can this be demanded if the agreement is silent?

Hi

Yes, the rules governing a landlord's notice to quit an excluded tenancy are based on the common law, (whereas notices for non excluded tenancies are governed both by the common law and by section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act 1977).

The notice to quit, then, must give whatever period of notice is required by the contract or if the agreement is silent on the matter, at least one full period of the tenancy ending on the first or the last day of a period (except that for a yearly tenancy only six months notice is required). There have been many cases dealing with notice provisions over the years, but these include Newman v Slade (1926) and Harley v Calder (1989). Technically speaking, a notice quit issued under the common law does not have to be in writing (Ahearn v Bellman, 1879) although it is clearly advisable to put it in writing. Incidentally, the contract can specify a period which is shorter than a period of the tenancy, but it must be clear on this point to be effective.

Notice to quit non excluded tenancies must comply within any relevant term in the tenancy and with section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act which requires that the notice be in writing and specifies a minimum period of four weeks notice, (or a period of the tenancy, whichever is the greater).

Notice to determine excluded licences must comply with the contract or, if there are no contractual provisions, it must give reasonable notice (Minister of Health v Bellotti 1944). If the contract specifies an unreasonably short period of notice, then any notice issued will not be valid until a reasonable period has passed. Again, it need not be in writing. There are no set rules on what constitutes a reasonable period, but such factors as the length of the occupancy and the periods of the occupancy will be relevant.

Notice to determine a non excluded licence must also comply with section 5 of the Protection from Eviction Act (minimum 4 week period, in writing, etc).

Hope this makes sense.

Preston

[mandarin]

Hi there.

I am renting a 3 bedroom maisonette to my brother (a place that I will be in a couple of days a week but is not my main home) and I will put together a basic contract for this.

However, he wants to get a lodger. I am fine with this, but (1) do I need to get a contract with the lodger? (2) Or can I leave this to my brother in which case (3) does he need to get the lodger to sign a written contract or is it less formal than this?

The aim of this is IF there are any problems with the lodger who I do not know I can cancel the agreement. I have no intention of doing this but would like the security. The tax isues will be upto my brother - I jut want the rent i've agreed with my brother.

Many thank for any advice - lodging is new to me!

[jta]

If your brother is the tenant then he will be the LL of the lodger. Lodgers have few rights and can usually be asked to leave with little notice.

[jeffrey]

mandarin: jta is right, but only if you're (1) letting the whole house to your brother.

An alternative (2) would be to let:
a. part to brother; and
b. rest to the third party, as your own T (rather than brother's lodger).

Which does brother prefer, (1) or (2)?

[mandarin]

Thanks both

Jeffrey, I think I will go with (1) as I want to keep my brothers relationship with his lodger separate, and besides i'm renting to my brother at a low rent value as he is very hard on money at present.

Rental tax-wise it will likely be the case that he claws back most of the rent he pays me from his lodger, but i'll leave that to him to decide. From my side I will just charge the rate I require for the whole property and leave anything else to him!

Many thanks

[smileypigface]

Hi, this is my first post and I'm not sure if I need advice or just want to run my situation past you guys and guage whether I'm justified in my reaction or need to get back in my box and get over myself :D

I am not new to having lodgers renting my spare room - I had the same lodger for 8 years in my previous house and we got along very well - although that was probably helped by the fact that I worked full time and also had a part-time pub job most evenings so we weren't actually in the house at the same time very much.

I have recently moved with my job and advertised my 2 spare rooms - the first lodger moved in at the beginning of December and signed an 'agreement' that I put together from an example I found on the internet and tailored it to meet my requirements.

So far with this person I have had the following issues:

Both rent payments to date have been late - the agreement says rent is due in first 5 working days of month - both months I have had to check my bank and chase the lodger to pay the rent - the payments have arrived on 15th and then 14th of the two months so far.

I stated before he moved in that the 4th (small) bedroom could be for shared storage and occasional overnight guests as there is a single bed in there. On the day he moved in I said it was OK to stack his boxes in there while he unpacked and moved stuff into his room - he has actually partially unpacked the boxes he put in there but spread the contents all around the room, on windowsills and bed - the bed has now disappeared under his stuff and the only floorspace left now has his airer with washing on it - there are piles of his clothes all around the room too.

In the days before the 2nd lodger moved in I cleaned her room in readiness and on opening the fitted wardrobe found that Lodger 1 had stacked more of his (full) boxes in that wardrobe - he hadn't asked permission to use that room. I moved his boxes to the bottom of his stairs (he is on top floor of town house) where they remained for 2 weeks - then one night I noticed they had gone - I then nearly fell over them as he had moved them 3 feet in total and put them on the turn of the stairs - these are stairs I have to use as my bathroom is on the top floor of the house.

His room is an absolute pigsty and stinks, the floor is not visible for clothes, papers, books etc spread across the floor - I accept this is essentially his business as long as does not cause damage to my furniture etc.

I went to put some rubbish in the bin to find he had put several plastic bags of rubbish in the wheely bin (we have 2) for garden, food and cardboard waste instead of the other wheely bin which is for general refuse. The recycling collection won't empty the recycling bin if it contains plastic so I had to tip the bin up and lean in and remove his rubbish and put it in the correct bin. When I mentioned it to him he just said “oh, you have to blame my girlfriend for that, she was helping me clear out my stuff”! He said this as he walked away so I didn't reply – of course what I should have said was that actually as he is the lodger it's up to him to make sure his rubbish goes in the correct bin – I didn't wait for him to move the rubbish as he wasn't home when I discovered this, and the collection was due that morning.

I had been away for the weekend and returned last Sunday night to find the large window in his bedroom (front of house) was wide open - he did not return until Wednesday night - OK, so it's on the 3rd floor so would be difficult for a burglar to climb in - but I eventually went in and closed the window due to howling wind and driving rain - he said it must have blown open in the wind (it's a 4 year old house so we are talking a UPVC double glazed window)! I do not know if there is rain damage to the windowsill or window blind - he stereo probably got the worst of any rain blowing in as it is on the windowsill.

Whilst in his room closing the window I noticed he has turned off the extractor fan in his en-suite bathroom, he had also turned off the extractor in the main bathroom next door to his room - neither of these bathrooms have windows so it is quite essential that the extractors do their job - I turned them both back on and have told him they must remain on.

He works shifts and often gets home at 1 or 2 am - not a problem except for the fact that he leaves the lights on through the house on his way to bed - this often wakes me and I end up having to get out of bed to turn off the light on my landing as the light shines through the crack around my bedroom door and keeps me awake - as well as the fact that it's unnecessary expense - he pays an all inclusive rent including the electric!

He spends a lot of time at his girlfriend's house so rarely cooks in the kitchen - but every single time he has used the kitchen he hasn't left it how he found it - there is now a box of stuff he has left strewn on the worktops that myself and Lodger 2 have had to move in order to be able to cook our meals - he also doesn't bother wiping down the worktops so we have to wipe away his crumbs and mess before we can use the worktops.

He loaded the washing machine with his laundry and left it in the machine for a week and a half - in the end I had to ask him to unload it so I could put a wash on (I would have asked sooner had I needed the machine sooner).

It all came to a head last week when I came home for lunch to find I would again have to clear his stuff before I could cook my meal - I haven't seen him in person since New Year's Eve due to his shifts and either one or both of us being away - so I sent him a text to ask him if he was due home later as I would like him to return the kitchen to how he found it so I could cook my meal without having to tidy after him. He had washed up his plate and cutlery from his meal but left the baking tray in the oven all greasy from whatever he cooked too - he had emptied half the utensils drawer onto the worktop and there were crumbs everywhere.

Anyway, the exchange of text messages that followed ended with him telling me he is flat hunting anyway and will give me notice when he gets the keys to a new property - I had a long think about it and replied that there will be a letter at the house for him on Monday giving him a month's notice from 28 Jan and he needs to be out by 1800 on 28 Feb.

I am concerned that his rent will once again be late - he seems to think it was acceptable because it was his bank's fault the last two months - he had to ask for my bank details twice because he couldn't find them and just doesn't seem to acknowledge that he should be the one checking his account to make sure the money had gone on time rather than me being left to check my account every day and hasten him.

I am thinking of putting in the letter that his rent for February is due on the first working day of Feb (2nd) and that if the money is not in my account on that day then his notice period will be shortened to the end of that week and that I will expect him to be gone by 1800 that Sunday - (8th) - does this sound reasonable? He has already broken the 'agreement' in numerous ways, in terms of late rent, lack of consideration to other house occupants, allowed the possiblity of damage to the property by allowing rain entry and stopping bathroom steam being expelled via the extractor.

Apologies - this has turned into a right old rant ... I suppose I will look back and think it's quite funny in some ways .. once he's gone maybe!!!

Sorry for such a rambling and boring first post - any thoughts/comments/advice gratefully appreciated - if you haven't nodded off by now!!!

Feel better for getting it off my chest anyway!!!!!

[mind the gap]

Hi smileypigface (great name!)

Don't worry, you are not alone. Read this :

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16327

Yours sounds like a selfish immature slob, too. You will be well rid of him. I don't know enough about the legality of shortening his notice period, but I'm sure others on the forum will advise.

I just wanted you to know that you have my sympathies.

Actually, he could be my 17 year old son...but I have to put up with him! Fortunately you don't have to put up with this monkey! When out worst (student) tenant (ever) moved out last year, I was sorely tempted to write to her mother and tell her what a hopeless job she had made of bringing up her daughter. (Never paid rent on time, damaged the furniture - broke bed & chest of drawers, burnt carpet, vomited on carpet, never cleaned her room but stayed in shower for hours on end...was rude and uncommunicative, told lies, had more clothes & shoes than Emelda Marcos and installed two extra wardrobes to accommodate them, so access to room severely restricted and hallway blocked...) I calmed down in the end and didn't write the letter - reasoning that the parent was unlikely to want to know, or unable to do anything about it. It would have made me feel better, in the short term, though.

[jta]

You have the patience of a saint!
As a lodger he has few rights, you seem to have been very fair, stick to your guns.

A suggestion for you though, why not put a timer switch on the landing lights? they can be adjusted to give the length of time needed to get up the stairs and open the door, it could save you a bit in the long run.

[smileypigface]

Thank you both for replying .... I'm impressed you made it to the end of my rant! Seriously, thanks.

jta I will definitely get a timer switch for the landing lights - great idea regardless of whether I have lodgers or not!

mind the gap, I can sympathise with your teenage son woes, and I could maybe understand some of the behaviours of the lodger if he wasn't actually a 45 year old man who, in my opinion, should know better!

Thanks again :)

[foxuk]

I need an urgent help advice please.

I am a landlord resident (tenant with agreement by my landlord to re-rent the rooms in the flat where I am living), and I had a lodger who gave me the notice last November 08.

He went back to his country for a holiday and during the notice period he started doing 'massage' business inside the property without my agreement, also I found out the website where he advertised his business.

According his working visa he couldn't do business and according our Lodger Agreement too.

The day he left I was at work and he did not give me the keys back, only his account number to refund his deposit. After check his room I found: the DVD and portable heating was broken, the bed I needed to fix, and the room was completely dirty that I expend 3 hours cleaning (he never dusted or cleaned the room).

When I called him asking for the keys he said does not know where the keys is, but for my surprise the keys was found inside the flat…

I didn’t refunded him awaiting his personal contact, now after 2 months I received an email from him asking me for the refund deposit; I replied and let he knew all the damages and what he did was unacceptable, that I wanted talk personally and not by email. I received his reply saying that was “invalid” the facts because I knew what he was doing and did not tell him anything, and asking me again for his deposit. I replied saying to him to contact me by phone make an appointment to discuss the matter personally.

How do I manage that situation please? What I can do?

[mind the gap]

I need an urgent help advice please.

I am a landlord resident (tenant with agreement by my landlord to re-rent the rooms in the flat where I am living), and I had a lodger who gave me the notice last November 08.

He went back to his country for a holiday and during the notice period he started doing 'massage' business inside the property without my agreement, also I found out the website where he advertised his business.

According his working visa he couldn't do business and according our Lodger Agreement too.

The day he left I was at work and he did not give me the keys back, only his account number to refund his deposit. After check his room I found: the DVD and portable heating was broken, the bed I needed to fix, and the room was completely dirty that I expend 3 hours cleaning (he never dusted or cleaned the room).

When I called him asking for the keys he said does not know where the keys is, but for my surprise the keys was found inside the flat…

I didn’t refunded him awaiting his personal contact, now after 2 months I received an email from him asking me for the refund deposit; I replied and let he knew all the damages and what he did was unacceptable, that I wanted talk personally and not by email. I received his reply saying that was “invalid” the facts because I knew what he was doing and did not tell him anything, and asking me again for his deposit. I replied saying to him to contact me by phone make an appointment to discuss the matter personally.

How do I manage that situation please? What I can do?

Please tell us :
How much deposit did he pay you?
How much has it cost you to replace/restore things he has damaged/left dirty?
Does he owe you money for anything else, e.g.rent/bills?

[Preston]

Hi,

Not sure I follow all the details, but I think there are two key questions:

a) what does your agreement say you are allowed to use the deposit for?

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

If (a) matches (b), you should be ok.

Preston

[mind the gap]

hey, Preston, you read my mind!

[foxuk]

a) what does your agreement say you are allowed to use the deposit for?

In my lodger Agreement the deposit "is not to use by the lodger and returnable at the end of the notice period"

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

His deposit was £ 450, (same amounth of month rent), I need deduct the cost of 1 new DVD, 1 new portable heating, hand job for fixing the bed, 3 hrs cleaning.

If (a) matches (b), you should be ok.

he doesn't owe me bills, as all the bills was included in the rent.

His business inside the property wasn't mean nothing?

[mind the gap]

b) what exactly do you want to deduct from the deposit and why?

His deposit was £ 450, (same amounth of month rent), I need deduct the cost of 1 new DVD, 1 new portable heating, hand job for fixing the bed, 3 hrs cleaning.?

OK : DVD player £30; portable heater £20; fixing bed £40; 3 hrs cleaning + materials £50

That makes £140...so I can understand why he wants the rest back (£approx £310).


His business inside the property wasn't mean nothing? Not unless you want to take him to court about it - and to be honest, I'm not sure what you'd hope to achieve. You cannot threaten to report him to the immigration authorities as an illegal worker if he goes away and drops his claim for the deposit - that starts to sound very much like blackmail.

If you do not intend to return his deposit, all you can do is say 'sue me for it, then'. Which he may, or may not do.

[foxuk]

Thank you for the advice. It is not my intention to blackmail no one including him.
As I have replied him, I will wait for his call and personally, I can back him his refund deposit deducted above-mentioned.
Thank you!

[smileypigface]

OK - so wrote lodger a letter dated 26 Jan (hard copy at house, e-mail copy to his e-mail address) giving him notice - options were:

1. Move out without incurring any more rental charge - clear room by 1800 on 31 Jan - let me know by lunchtime 29th Jan and I would be at house to check room, take keys and refund deposit.

2. Move out at end Feb - due to previous late rent, rent due by banks closing on Mon 2 Feb (he got paid on Fri 30 Jan) - I would be at house on 28 Feb to take keys and refund deposit.

3. If rent not received then 48 hours to clear room and I will be at house at 1800 on 4th Feb to check room, take keys and refund deposit.

If room cleared and keys left then to leave forwarding address for refund of deposit by cheque.

So, he cleared his room by 1800 Sunday 1 Feb and then bombards me with text messages demanding I be at the house this evening to take keys and refund deposit - I pointed out that if he wanted to leave the keys at the house then he would only be liable for 1 day apportioned rent for Feb but if he waits until Monday night it will be 2 days. And anyway, me being at the house tonight was not an option due to work commitments.

He then tried to embark upon a p-ing contest about whether I consider the other lodger to be tidy - when I didn't respond to his questions about this he sent me picture message of a dish of food on the worksurface in my kitchen! (presumably belonging to the other lodger)

This is just too childish for words.

He finally 'argues' me round to dropping the keys today and coming back on Wednesday when I said all along I would be here to refund his deposit -which is exactly what I'd said in my letter. Most of my replies simply referred him back to the notice letter.

Today I get a phone call from a letting company asking for a reference for him - I answered their questions concisely and truthfully (albeit I have pointed out to him that out of courtesy he should of told me he had passed on my details to them):

Did he pay his rent on time ... no
Did he look after your property ... no, he left it unsecured for 4 days and turned off essential extractor fans leaving my bathrooms susceptible to mould growing.
Would I recommend him to another landlord ... no, most definitely not.

10 minutes later he sends me a text asking me to ring him to discuss the reference I have given. I reply to say it's not open for discussion I have answered the questions honestly and there is nothing more to say. He then wants me to ring them back and explain it wasn't his fault the rent was late it was all down to his bank ... nope, my agreement was with him, not his bank and his banking problems are not transferrable to me ..... so why didn't I remind him sooner if it had been a problem ... errr because he is an adult and was well aware of what he had signed up to. That he chose his course of action and the consequence is that my reference isn't what he would like it to be - but I had been honest and factual. His final comment was that he wouldn't drop the key tonight as the roads are too bad - unless I want him to endanger his life!!

What a childish twit .. he continually blames everyone else for the things he has done .. tries to bleat "it's not fair" at his treatment compared to the other lodger and now this! I'm afraid I replied "For goodness sake grow up - it's worse than the tripe I get from my teenage children."

If he's not bringing the key because of the bad weather then why not just say that.

Anyway, having not slept at all last night knowing he has my house keys I have booked a locksmith for tomorrow to change the locks ... should I honour my agreement with him and refund his deposit (less the two days of Feb as it's not his fault he can't get here due to the weather) or should I say that I want no further dealings with him and will be using his deposit to pay the locksmith due to the fact he should have left his key when I asked him to on Sunday.

I feel to be fair I should honour the agreement to refund him but his attitude and manner towards me is unacceptable and I do not trust him to safeguard my keys and therefore should I use the balance of his deposit to pay for the locks.

The deposit is £100.

Sorry for the long post again .. even the dog has given up listen to me go on about it all !!!

[mind the gap]

I would just 'let go' of this one without getting into too much of a fight about the locks.

Have the locks changed as planned, but don't deduct the cost from what you plan to refund to him - many LLs change locks routinely when Ts move out, (even if keys are returned on time) just in case they have given copies of keys to anyone else.

Be magnanimous - this guy clearly is a sad, inadequate wretch who is going to struggle to find accommodation elsewhere. If you kick up a fuss about charging for the locks and he feels resentful, he may feel moved to return and aggravate you, whereas if you are decent, he is more likely just to 'let it go', too.

Just get shut...wash this man right out of your hair! It'll be worth £100 I should imagine?

Good luck. (Are we all invited to the party when he's gone?!)

[Cathroc]

Sounds like a right ***. Better off shot of him. Think I'd be inclined to ignore the two days and think yourself lucky. As for the keys........ are they registered because if they are, they're not meant to be copied for anyone else but you. Am I being naiive ?

[mind the gap]

As for the keys........ are they registered because if they are, they're not meant to be copied for anyone else but you. Am I being naiive ?

Most resident landlords (and many non-resident ones) don't bother with registered keys. They are expensive. It tends to be large organisations e.g. university accommodation offices, who insist on them, as their tenants are harder to keep tabs on.

[Preston]

Hi,

Sorry I haven't had time to read through all the detail in your posts. It might be worth distilling your information down to one or two key questions if you can, although I accept that isn't easy. In the meantime, some background information on resident landlord tenancies.

Where the landlord (or a member of his or her family) shares any accommodation with the person he or she is letting, the letting is excluded. “Shared accommodation” means any part other than stairs, halls, passageways or storage space; so that while a tenant in a self-contained flat would not be considered to be sharing accommodation with the landlord, even someone who has most of their own facilities but shares a toilet would. However, even if the occupier only shares accommodation with a member of the landlord’s family, the arrangement will still be counted as a sharing one if the landlord himself also lives in the house.

For non-excluded tenancies and licences, notice must be of at least whichever is the longest of:
• four weeks, or
• the term of the let, if any (for example, a month if rent is
paid monthly), or
• whatever has been agreed between the parties
and, for a periodic tenancy, end on the last day of a period(usually the day rent is due). It must be served in writing; if itis served by the landlord, it must include certain specifiedinformation (see appendix A – pre-printed forms are available from law stationers). Notice to quit should be clear and accurate about the property and the tenant or licensee it is addressed to. While some minor errors that could not mislead the recipient may be overlooked, defects in the content or timing of a notice will make it invalid.

For a non-excluded licence or tenancy, eviction must only be via a possession order from the court.

For excluded tenancies, unless you and the tenant agree otherwise, notice must be at least the length of the period and end on a rent day. However, there is no four-week minimum (so, for example, a weekly tenancy could be ended with a week’s notice), and you and the tenant are free to agree in advance that notice should be shorter or longer. Notice does not need to be written (so there are no requirements for prescribed form), but it is a good idea to give it in writing anyway, in case of future dispute. However it is served, it must still be clear and be timed properly in order to be valid.

For excluded licences, the notice required is simply the longer of whatever has been agreed between the parties (if anything) and what is ‘reasonable’. Reasonableness can ultimately only be decided by the courts, but is a matter of fairness and common sense: for example, taking into account the licensee’s conduct, or how easy it would be for him or her to find alternative accommodation. Notice of the same length as would be required for a similar tenancy would normally be considered reasonable, but if there is likely to be a dispute it would be necessary to take legal advice. Again, there is no need in law for notice to be in writing, but it is recommended to do so.

For an excluded licence or tenancy, there is no legal requirement for you to get a possession order so long as notice has been correctly given. However, a landlord who finds him or herself with a former tenant or licensee who refuses to leave is still strongly advised to apply to the court for eviction. It is a criminal offence for a landlord – or someone working on his or her behalf – to use force to make an occupier leave against the occupier’s will, even where the tenancy or licence has been properly brought to an end (or expired, if a fixed term). It is also an offence to use threats of force.

[smileypigface]

I would just 'let go' of this one without getting into too much of a fight about the locks.

Have the locks changed as planned, but don't deduct the cost from what you plan to refund to him - many LLs change locks routinely when Ts move out, (even if keys are returned on time) just in case they have given copies of keys to anyone else.

Be magnanimous - this guy clearly is a sad, inadequate wretch who is going to struggle to find accommodation elsewhere. If you kick up a fuss about charging for the locks and he feels resentful, he may feel moved to return and aggravate you, whereas if you are decent, he is more likely just to 'let it go', too.

Just get shut...wash this man right out of your hair! It'll be worth £100 I should imagine?

Good luck. (Are we all invited to the party when he's gone?!)

Many thanks - excellent advice - I know you are right in what you say and have just sent him a text asking him for his bank details and made a refund of the deposit less the 2 days apportioned rent previously agreed. I've just asked him to put the keys in the post and not mentioned anything about getting the locks changed.

Sorted.

Time for the party I think - the lemonades are on me!!!!!!

Many thanks for everyone's advice - much appreciated.:D

[International Hamster]

Hi everyone,

I've read through the forums to see what other landlords have done with their lodgers during troubles times and it's been a help, but I wonder if anyone can help with my specific problem.

This is a fairly long rant and for that I apologise, but I value being able to relax at home and I perhaps naively thought that as my previous 2 tenants were so good that things would work out this time.

The history is that I was made redundant last October whilst looking for a new lodger, my previous lodger having returned to university (and left me a present of my favourite beer as thanks for being such a good landlord). As I was out of work I was desperate and in the end I took in someone I had some doubts about simply because I needed the money.

The lodger has his own room but there is no agreement that I am excluded access to it, indeed I stated when he moved in that I may need entry from time to time to ventilate his room (and my flat is a basement flat). There is also no written agreement, simply that his rent is due in advance of the month, I'm to hold one month's deposit and standard notice is 1 month.

Well as you may expect from me posting here, things have turned sour. He's been staying 4 months now and his behaviour has left a lot to be desired.

- Bangs every door when he uses it, which is frequently as, for example, when he makes a cup of tea he typically goes from his room to the kitchen and back 3 times just for 1 cup.
- Makes noise at unsociable times e.g. coming home at 12:30am, banging doors, phone constantly going off and then up at 07:30am the next day even on weekends.
- He has never paid his rent on time and every month I've had to remind him. Exception was last month when I told him a week in advance not to forget, and he "only" paid it a day late. When he first moved in he agreed to setup a standing order which he has never done.
- Having been told he can use the spare room for temporary storage when he moved in, he has left piles of stuff in there for the duration of his stay
- Constantly leaves mess everywhere. He drinks tea like it's going out of fashion and is into double figures for the amount of times he has spilled more than a few drops of tea and not cleaned it up. Last time he spilled it down my white walls near the front door and just left it. He also destroys the oven when he uses it e.g. by using the grill on maximum setting to cook bacon or sausages, hence fat all over the oven and oven door, which then smells.
- There's many other things, but this post will be long enough already. :)

I first mentioned the banging doors, tea spills and lack of standing order in a fairly cordial discussion 2 months ago, where he agreed he would try to be quieter.

One month ago, after being woke up both days on two weekends on the trot but the 12:30am-07:30am behaviour mentioned above, I had an argument with him, asking him why it was so difficult for him to be quiet, to which he responded with a long list of excuses about how none of it was his fault and he didn't like being "harassed and harangued".

So I asked him to move out and we agreed he had until the end of March to look (so about 7/8 weeks).

A week ago he spoke to my live-in girlfriend and said he had found a place for the end of March, and could he not pay his rent for the last month and use his deposit as rent instead. My girlfriend gave a negative response, to which the lodger began ranting and intimidating her, so she said he should talk to me, to which the lodger agreed.

Well since then we have not seen him. He certainly hasn't asked me if it's alright not to pay rent for the last month, possibly because he knows I would say no. So the deadline for his rent has now passed with no sign of him or his rent. I guess he thinks if he doesn't speak to me he can get away without paying rent.

The only number I have for him is for his old phone, which he recently replaced, so I've left a voicemail for him to contact me. He works for the emergency services but the only number I can find for is an emergency one, which isn't appropriate in this case.

So what I want to do is leave a letter in his room stating he has 7 days to pay his rent or be evicted, denied further access and for his belongings to be put in storage, any cost of which wll come out of his deposit, along with rent owed. What I'm actually going to do on that date is change the locks when he is out and put his in bin bags in the shed.

Is this within my rights? I've spent the last week waiting for him to make an appearance to tell him in person but he simply hasn't shown up, which demonstrates to me he has somewhere else to stay.

The thing is, my first lodger asked me if it was alright to use his deposit as last month's rent and he was a good guy to live with so I actually agreed. But my current lodger has proven himself to be completely untrustworthy and selfish. He seems to think he can just do what he wants, hence why I now just want to be rid of him.

Any help and advice would be gratefully received (and sorry for the long post).

[mind the gap]

In other words, can the resident LL change locks and use deposit for the last month's rent when lodger seems to have ceased occupying but has not removed his belongings?

[jeffrey]

Lodgers have effectively no rights as against their resident L except for any explicitly granted in any Letting Agreement into which they enter.

[mind the gap]

Lodgers have effectively no rights as against their resident L except for any explicitly granted in any Letting Agreement into which they enter.

So the answer is yes, you can change the locks; you can presumably keep the deposit in lieu of rent unless your letting agreement specifically prohibits that; but you will need to trawl LLz threads on 'abandoned property' as there are laws which relate to what you may and may not do with that.

[International Hamster]

In other words, can the resident LL change locks and use deposit for the last month's rent when lodger seems to have ceased occupying but has not removed his belongings?

Not quite. The lodger has decided he doesn't have to pay rent for this last month and use deposit in leiu, something that I have not and will not agree to. As far as I am concerned, if he and/or his stuff his still here, he pays rent or leaves and takes his stuff with him.

I have no idea if his absence will continue or even if he will turn up tonight, but so far this is out of his normal behaviour pattern and he has made no effort to let me know what he is doing, when I have been nothing but upfront with him.

My question is, as the lodger has not paid rent, can I evict him on a week's notice, when I have no means to contact him other than leaving a letter in his room, and put his stuff in storage, most likely wrapped up in bin bags in my shed, for him to pick up whenever he decides to make an appearance?


So the answer is yes, you can change the locks

Well that's good news as my primary thought is keeping him out so I don't have to worry about malicious acts or further intimidation.

If I do wrap his stuff up in bin bags with reasonable care and put this in the shed, which the lodger considers secure enough to store his £1000 bike in, surely this is a reasonable storage arrangement? Even if I charge him standard self-storage fees he might even be in the ironic position where he could get some of his deposit returned.

Thanks for your quick replies guys.

[mind the gap]

Not quite. The lodger has decided he doesn't have to pay rent for this last month and use deposit in leiu, something that I have not and will not agree to. As far as I am concerned, if he and/or his stuff his still here, he pays rent or leaves and takes his stuff with him.

I have no idea if his absence will continue or even if he will turn up tonight, but so far this is out of his normal behaviour pattern and he has made no effort to let me know what he is doing, when I have been nothing but upfront with him.

My question is, as the lodger has not paid rent, can I evict him on a week's notice, when I have no means to contact him other than leaving a letter in his room, and put his stuff in storage, most likely wrapped up in bin bags in my shed, for him to pick up whenever he decides to make an appearance?



Well that's good news as my primary thought is keeping him out so I don't have to worry about malicious acts or further intimidation.

If I do wrap his stuff up in bin bags with reasonable care and put this in the shed, which the lodger considers secure enough to store his £1000 bike in, surely this is a reasonable storage arrangement? Even if I charge him standard self-storage fees he might even be in the ironic position where he could get some of his deposit returned.

Thanks for your quick replies guys.

If you keep his stuff in safe storage, that is OK. Your problem will be if he disappears completely and you are stuck with it - that's wehere the threads on abandoned goods will help.

Have you checked hospitals or his next of kin in case he has been injured or is very ill?

[International Hamster]

If you keep his stuff in safe storage, that is OK. Your problem will be if he disappears completely and you are stuck with it - that's wehere the threads on abandoned goods will help.

Have you checked hospitals or his next of kin in case he has been injured or is very ill?

I don't even know if he has any next of kin, let alone have any details. My actions are based on the likely situation that he is doing what he likes and will turn up to collect his stuff, but if it does transpire that he has a genuine reason I will be more understanding. The whole problem is I'm having to guess what is going on.

If he had told me his intentions like an adult rather than just disappearing, this situation could have been avoided. If he desperately wanted to avoid paying rent and my assumption is correct that he is staying somewhere else for the month to avoid contact, he could have put his stuff in storage for less than £100 and actually saved money!

[notchuffed]

I have a AST for 12 months and have been subletting a room to someone on a verbal agreement only. They left owing 2 months unpaid rent, 1 months notice and several hundred pounds in damages.

I have been advised by a solicitor to invoice them (which i have done) After this we will do a 'letter before action' and then assuming he hasnt paid up, issue a small claim.

My questions are:

1. I assume he is classed as a lodger? (and therefore has almost no legal rights?)

2. Does this mean, I didnt need to protect his deposit and am therefore not liable to any counter claims under DPS?

3. Its possible that I might be deemed as subletting and my lease states this is not allowed - will this affect the validity of my case?

4. I read somewhere that if you've paid 3 months rent upfront as deposit (which i did as part of my AST) then you may be allowed to sublet?

5. Do the emails and texts I have from him promising to pay the rent (which was always in cash) that was owed mean a judge is more likely to believe me than him?

Please help - I know Ive been stupid and foolish and have learnt my lesson but would really appreciate your help.

[jta]

1. Yes, he was a lodger.

2. No need to protect the deposit.

3. No, it's not sub-letting.

4 Dunno.

5 Maybe.

[Bel]

I have a AST for 12 months and have been subletting a room to someone on a verbal agreement only. They left owing 2 months unpaid rent, 1 months notice and several hundred pounds in damages.

I have been advised by a solicitor to invoice them (which i have done) After this we will do a 'letter before action' and then assuming he hasnt paid up, issue a small claim.

My questions are:

1. I assume he is classed as a lodger? (and therefore has almost no legal rights?)

2. Does this mean, I didnt need to protect his deposit and am therefore not liable to any counter claims under DPS?

3. Its possible that I might be deemed as subletting and my lease states this is not allowed - will this affect the validity of my case?

4. I read somewhere that if you've paid 3 months rent upfront as deposit (which i did as part of my AST) then you may be allowed to sublet?

5. Do the emails and texts I have from him promising to pay the rent (which was always in cash) that was owed mean a judge is more likely to believe me than him?

Please help - I know Ive been stupid and foolish and have learnt my lesson but would really appreciate your help.

1) I would say he is an excluded tenant, and you are his resident LL. This is similar to lodgers rights.
2) You did not have to protect his deposit
3) *Probably doesnt matter; that's between you and your own LL
4) See http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=13061
5) Depends what his evidence is. You need to have an account of all his payments.

* I'm not a legal expert

[Poppy]

First you say you were sub-letting. Then you assume he is classed as a lodger. Which is it? Please clarify. Were you actually living in that property with this person and sharing the kitchen and bathroom? Or were you living elsewhere at the time?

[Ericthelobster]

Do the emails and texts I have from him promising to pay the rent (which was always in cash) that was owed mean a judge is more likely to believe me than him?I take it you didn't issue receipts for the cash, then?

These ought to help, shouldn't they (ie, it's got to better than a simple your-word-against-mine scenario, hasn't it?).

Do you think he's likely to accuse you of faking the emails/texts?

[notchuffed]

First you say you were sub-letting. Then you assume he is classed as a lodger. Which is it? Please clarify. Were you actually living in that property with this person and sharing the kitchen and bathroom? Or were you living elsewhere at the time?

I was living in the property at the same time,sharing lounge/ kitchen with them having thier own separate bedroom and bathroom.

[notchuffed]

I take it you didn't issue receipts for the cash, then?

These ought to help, shouldn't they (ie, it's got to better than a simple your-word-against-mine scenario, hasn't it?).

Do you think he's likely to accuse you of faking the emails/texts?

No i didnt.

Can I do so retrospectively?

Um dunno - I think there has to be a way of independently validating them but I dunno what it is?

[Poppy]

You simply have a lodger or paying guest. You are a resident landlord. You have not sub-let. You do not have an AST agreement.

I see no point in issuing receipts now this person has left. Don't waste time and money chasing your ex-lodger through court.

Next time you have a lodger and they have not paid their rent or forget whose home it is, give them their marching orders. Definitely don't wait two months. The very first day (or two if you're feeling generous) their rent is unpaid and you are given excuses - that's when you decide it's time for them to go.

[notchuffed]

I see no point in issuing receipts now this person has left. Don't waste time and money chasing your ex-lodger through court.


Thanks - apprciated.

But why? I have email and text from him proving he moved in and agreed the rent and then also kept putting off paying it. I know where he's living and where he works. And including damages, it comes to almost £3.5k so Im hoping its worth pursuing (?).

[Poppy]

£3,500 puts a different light on things. What the heck happened? Was it your possessions damaged or your landlord's?

[notchuffed]

£3,500 puts a different light on things. What the heck happened? Was it your possessions damaged or your landlord's?

Landlords but obvioulsy I am liable but most of it is unpaid rent and notice.

To be honest it was more than 2 months unpaid and 1 months notice but i didnt want to give the exact numbers in cae he or she comes on here.

Im hoping emails and texts promising to pay the rent will sway the judge?

[notchuffed]

Im hoping emails and texts promising to pay the rent will sway the judge?

Does anyone know about this? Please help.

[Bel]

Everything helps, but your preparation needs to be thorough and it depends on the defence of your lodger.

see http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=13857&highlight=bundle for inspiration

Try a search yourself: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/search.php

[Imp]

I'm not a great legal mind like others on here, but here's my 2p worth.

He is a lodger. Unless there was some agreement in place (preferably in writing) then he does not have to give notice to leave so you will struggle to claim for lost rent during a notice period.

Did he give you a deposit at the beginning of his stay? If so, then this could be offset against the unpaid rent.

How will you be able to prove the damage was caused by him and not by you?

[Telometer]

>>How will you be able to prove the damage was caused by him and not by you?


The crucial point in my view. It's a classic my-word-against-yours situation. Far from great for anybody, least of all the judge...

If you offset the deposit against the repairs, and sue him for the lost rent then I'm guessing that it might be an easier case to make in court.

[notchuffed]

He agreed, via email, to 2 months notice so i'm hoping that will be clear cut?

I video'd the bathroom and bedroom two day's after he left and so am hoping that evidence will be admissible?

[Summer]

New tenant visited the property, covered basic rules in the lodging (in my house) included that guests were not permitted to stay overnight just during the day. I mentioned this specifically as she had a male accomplice (a work colleague).

She unexpectedly turned up on my doorstep and paid 1 month's rent upfront a week before moving in at the most inconvenient time (10pm). I had no agreement for her to sign - was very persistent I take the cash and she'll sign the day of moving in (3 days after).

I accepted this as reservation and a month's rent - and luckily called her back from the street to
pick up a receipt (however did not state anything other then the amount and date)

As instructed by his new adament lodger, I cancelled a week's viewings organised by the agent.

3 Days after – The Day of Moving in - she claimed she was too busy to sign an agreement to confirm the lodging.

The Following morning - her work colleague (turned out to be her long-term boyfriend) stayed the night. She apologised for this, and still refused to sign a contact (My Fear: could become a sitting tenant).

One week later after living at our family home, she gave a 3 hour notice and moved out.

Including the period of reserving the room and the day she willingly left on her own accord - is 10 days. How much am I entitled to retain – or am I? She demands the rest back? Remember other then a verbal agreement I nor does she have anything in writing other then a small receipt (she doesn’t have a notice of terminating the Let) - the receipt mentions her name, the address and sum of money- that's it nothing more.

She threats to take me to the small claims court.

There's no accountability on her side she claims that it was her basic tenant right to have her boyfriend in our family home, and states our fridge was not working which is a blatant lie.

Does she have the right to claim the whole month's rent back - despite the loss of a month's rent I've now encountered?

Please kindly advise me.

[Poppy]

She unexpectedly turned up on my doorstep That was your first mistake, to let her in when you were not ready.

Please do not invite trouble by holding on to your ex-lodger's unused rent. Suggest you return it now. Choose future lodgers more carefully and stay in control of the situation at all times.

[jta]

I think I agree with Poppy, although the situation stinks from your point of view. You are probably well rid of her.
As a matter of interest, if they had wanted to rent as a couple, what would have been your feelings then?

[Summer]

We could barely take one on board without too much traffic in the family bathroom - let alone two people. The rent was inclusive of all bills we couldnt simply afford to keep 2 for the price of 1. As far as couples go, we wouldnt have accepted as the house is not big enough. We searched for a college or uni student - but prefered to have a nun. :)

[Summer]

I’ve received a letter in the post today she’s compiled a “Letter before Action”, she’s now demanding for all the month’s rent back, including the10 days she’d stayed at my place for and the cost of her claim which is £35 (!!).

I see no reason in this person, there is no accountability from her side for simply walking in and walking straight out at her own convenience for free. I presume it’s
a whole new ball game now, perhaps I should meet her head on with all guns blazing or leave the country and seek asylum elsewhere as prison food has still got a long way to go, or even better still I’ll let her take me down, at least I can peacefully ride out the recession.

What do you guys think?

[Poppy]

Return the unused rent in a verifiable method (eg paid into her bank account, by cheque, or ask her to come to your home to receive cash and sign a receipt.)

[notchuffed]

Help! Anyone?

[Yorkie1]

I video'd the bathroom and bedroom two day's after he left and so am hoping that evidence will be admissible?

As far as this evidence goes, all it proves is that the damage existed at the date of the video. If he denies that the damage was there when he moved out, you will need to consider how you prove that it was him who caused it, in the absence of any acceptance by him that he was responsible.

[notchuffed]

Would a witness statement from the previous occupant of the room stating the room was left in immaculate condition before the last guy moved into it, help establish this?

[jta]

Not really, for the same reasons, what it was like originally is going to have no bearing if you cannot produce solid evidence that the T left it in worse condition, and the video does not really do that.

[Summer]

Thanks for your reply poppy.

Am I obliged to even give her back the rent she's used, she even wants the 10 days rent that she'd used to accomodated the room?

[Bel]

Thanks for your reply poppy.

Am I obliged to even give her back the rent she's used, she even wants the 10 days rent that she'd used to accomodated the room?

She sounds like trouble and a bully.

If I were you, I would write a letter stating what the terms of her occupation were that were stated to her verbally eg months notice, that things have not worked between you, she quit early, although its your right to keep money as per verbal notice, you agree to return her the balance of unused rent, and if she accepts this, it is as a full settlement. When you give her the money, get her to sign and date a copy of the letter; with the text "I agree that this £x is in full sttlement of the above."

[islandgirl]

I wouldn't give her the rent she has used if you can prove she was there. Wait for the summons (if it ever comes....) then compile a defence complete with witness statements that she stayed and that the fridge was working etc. However I cannot believe that she will actuallly go to small claims on this one - what do others think?
forgot to say - I would however give her back the unused rent (full and final settlement is a good idea but do it correctly - ie by cheque and the old do not bank this cheque but return it if you do not agree)

[Moderator1]

This thread consolidates several previous short threads all dealing with the same subject.

[business_time]

Hi there,

I am currently living in a flat with the landlord - sharing common facilities - kitchen, bathroom etc. I understand this makes me a lodger, the rules governing my tenancy coming from common-law tenancy.

Problem being, I signed an AST for 12 months when moving in. Is the AST void as this contract is not valid for lodgers?

Reason I ask is I am approx 4 months in to the 12 months. The landlord and I do not get on. I am looking to move out so want to know my rights. The landlord has stated that if I want to move I must give one months notice and find a replacement tenant that is willing to sign a 12 month agreement. The new tenant must also be up to their standard - which I can see being difficult as they are quite hard to please.

What I want to do is give one months notice then move on - they find the tennant. Am I fullfiling my legal requirements or running the risk of losing my deposit?

[jeffrey]

Look at this thread: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=153800#post153800
In your case, the lettings:
a. cannot be ASTs; but
b. are still valid Lodger Agreements.

[business_time]

Look at this thread: http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=153800#post153800
In your case, the lettings:
a. cannot be ASTs; but
b. are still valid Lodger Agreements.

Thanks Jeffrey,

I have a standard AST with my LL, which does not mention finding a replacement tenant. It also does not mention any notice period - for either LL or T. What is the protocol in this case?

[jeffrey]

Since the 1988 Act does not apply, the Agreement operates literally. There is no 'protocol', just the written provisions.

[Bel]

Hi there,

I am currently living in a flat with the landlord - sharing common facilities - kitchen, bathroom etc. I understand this makes me a lodger, the rules governing my tenancy coming from common-law tenancy.

Problem being, I signed an AST for 12 months when moving in. Is the AST void as this contract is not valid for lodgers?

Reason I ask is I am approx 4 months in to the 12 months. The landlord and I do not get on. I am looking to move out so want to know my rights. The landlord has stated that if I want to move I must give one months notice and find a replacement tenant that is willing to sign a 12 month agreement. The new tenant must also be up to their standard - which I can see being difficult as they are quite hard to please.

What I want to do is give one months notice then move on - they find the tennant. Am I fullfiling my legal requirements or running the risk of losing my deposit?

Suggest you get a skin complaint such as scabies...he wont be able to get rid of you quick enough.

[Poppy]

That's right, tenancy agreements make no mention of going about finding tenant replacements because the expectation is to stay for the term stated. In your case for a minimum of twelve months.

You need to come to an amicable agreement with your landlord to let you leave in one month without further cost. Discuss the matter in a friendly face to face manner.

Is the property near any adult educational institutions? Do you both realise this is peak time to find student lodgers? Get cracking…

Failing negotiations, learn to be a nuisance. Develop a severe case of untidiness/stinkiness/cigarette smokiness/noisiness/anti-social behaviour/acquire a menagerie where animals leave droplettes everywhere. Oh yes and invite in the local teenagers to skateboard down the stairs. Then cross your fingers and hope they'll be so fed up that they'll be more than glad to let you leave early.

[jeffrey]

I'm not certain that LZ ought to be wishing onto its members either:
a. scabies; or
b. severe untidiness/stinkiness/cigarette smokiness/noisiness/anti-social behaviour.

[business_time]

hahaha I am loving some of the suggestions. Thanks people :)

Looks like my only option is to either 1) try to come to an agreement with the landlord again, or 2) make a nuisance of myself.


One more thing - when we signed the agreement we did not have a witness so he had friends of his just sign it the next time he saw them. I would think that would make our agreement void?

In this case we would be lodgers without an agreement in place. What are the protocols regarding notice etc in that situation?

Thanks again!

[Bel]

You do not need a witness for the agreement to be valid.

A reason to not be uncooperative....you may need a landlord reference someday.

[business_time]

You do not need a witness for the agreement to be valid.

A reason to not be uncooperative....you may need a landlord reference someday.

Ah I see. I'm not having much luck.

From what you say - if the agreement was not signed by a witness it would be valid.
But, what if it was signed by a person who was not actually a witness to the signing of the contract? Does that make a difference?

After some investigation I have found a lodger without another agreement in place must give a reasonable period of notice - i.e. one payment period.

[Telometer]

You have an agreement with your landlord to stay for 12 months. You both agreed this and signed a document. You cannot wriggle out of your obligations under any circumstances. No matter what your particular circumstances are - that your L lives with you, that his mate scrawled on the paper later, that his cat was sick on it.

He is under no compulsion to let you find somebody else.


However, most landlords are happy to do this, but the onus is on you to find the replacement.

[jeffrey]

From what you say - if the agreement was not signed by a witness it would be valid.
But, what if it was signed by a person who was not actually a witness to the signing of the contract? Does that make a difference?
An AST need not be written at all (although a written/signed/witnessed document is best); it could be entirely oral.

[business_time]

You have an agreement with your landlord to stay for 12 months. You both agreed this and signed a document. You cannot wriggle out of your obligations under any circumstances. No matter what your particular circumstances are - that your L lives with you, that his mate scrawled on the paper later, that his cat was sick on it.

He is under no compulsion to let you find somebody else.


However, most landlords are happy to do this, but the onus is on you to find the replacement.

I am simply trying to find out what my rights are in this situation and if what has happened so far is 'legal'.
If that works in my favour - so be it. Im not trying to "wriggle out" of anything.

[bw09]

Hello All,

I am thinking of taking in a lodger into my recently bought flat. I have known him for about 6 years a friend and he is spot on with me. He enquired about lodging and I also really need some help with the mortgage.

He is willing to commit for 2 years but it would be good to know if I can 'do
a 2 year lodging agreement.

My only concern is that will a lodging agreement of 2 years give the 'lodger' any more rights than usual? If not then we'll commence straight away.

If it does, can these be explained in detail so I can make an informed decision.

Cheers

BW

[Poppy]

Lodgers cannot earn any extra rights at all.

I would never commit to any fixed period of time where a lodger is concerned. I state when deciding whether to accept the lodger that I want them to stay for an academic year and they decide if that fits with their plans. I don’t put this in the licence to lodge because it is possible that we may not get on and I want them to move on (or vice versa) before the end of the academic year. I normally state a one week notice period in the licence to lodge or someone has once requested a two week notice period and that was put in the agreement. There is no need to tie yourself in with a lodger unnecessarily – it’ll lead to regret.

It's your home, stay in control.

[bw09]

Hi Poppy,

Yes I see what you are saying. I have know this person for a good 6 years and do trust him and to be honest with you I could really do with the money towards my lodging agreement. Is a licence agreement legally binding? i.e if the lodger attempted to leave before the notice period or the length of the lodging agreement could I take action. I don't believe this will happen but it's always wise to be prepared.

Regards

BW

[jeffrey]

The letting to a lodger creates a licence. This is a personal permission to occupy, not a tenancy, so it binds only the named parties (but not, for example, L's successors). I recommend a written Agreement setting-out appropriate rules; that way, both parties know where they stand.

[Poppy]

Why would you want to take action in such circumstances? This is a lodger – merely paying guest. You’re getting overly serious.

In my opinion, count yourself lucky if this person moves in, behaves in a manner that you accept and pays rent for two years. On the other hand if he wants to move out sooner, why attempt to stop him? There are plenty of people wanting rooms.

You can always take legal action if someone damages your property whoever they are.

[bw09]

Hi Jeffrey, I do have a correct Lodging agreement which I obtained from the internet at a cost of £8. It has all the terms on one page and is relatively comprehensive.

How do you mean it does not bind L's successors?, who are the successors?

As long as it binds him and me to carry out what's written in the agreement then that's all I'm concerned about.

Don't want him trying to get out against his notice period and leaving me in the financial '****'

Regards

BW

[jeffrey]

How do you mean it does not bind L's successors?, who are the successors?
'Successor' in this context means anyone who replaces you as owner.

[Pheedbak]

Hi all,

I need to (preferably by download!) obtain the above agreement, as im renting out a room in the house i own and live in :)

Could anyone please point me in the right direction or www to get it from?

Ta

Phil

[jeffrey]

No. If you reside, what you need is a Lodger Agreement.

[Pheedbak]

THanks for that i was just coming to this realisation myself. Appreciate the confirmation :)

[tom999]

I need to (preferably by download!) obtain the above agreement, as im renting out a room in the house i own and live in :)

Could anyone please point me in the right direction or www to get it from?


Lodger Agreement Forms (http://www.legalhelpers.co.uk/landlord/houseshare.asp)

If tenancy has not started, then a Lodger Application Form (http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/members/download.php?f=Lodger%20Application.pdf) may be useful.

[poindexter]

Hi

I moved into a shared house last month on a fixed term excluded tenancy contract. Two other house sharers have left very recently and the LL is, so far, refusing to repay their deposits (for no good reason). They will go the small claims procedure if he continues. Obviously I'm concerned as the deposits will not be in TDS's and I don't fancy being at his mercy when the time comes to leave. A closer look at my contract shows that he did not indicate either 6 months or 12 months. Is this contract valid? A fixed term contract with no fixed term indicated seems to be pointless.

[P.Pilcher]

If the period of validity is not stated then I'm pretty certain that the law will hold that is validity is six months. If your landlord has not placed your deposit in an approved scheme or failed to notify you which scheme the deposit has been lodged in then you can look forward to taking him to the small claims court and extracting 3x the deposit from him when he fails to refund your deposit in full. Did he complete a full inventory of the property to which you agreed by signing every page? If not he will have great difficulty in defending your action in the SCC to obtain a complete refund of that deposit, let alone 3x it!

P.P.

[poindexter]

I've heard that TDS does not apply to Excluded Tenancy contracts and that he can voluntarily place the deposits in them but does not have to. I'm worried (as is my other housemate) as to where my money is. He's a live-in LL and acts very differently from when I came to view which is why I wondered if I could break the contract on the basis of the unspecified term

[Paul_f]

Ah! A live-in landlord means that you are all lodgers and as such not subject to the Housing Acts or Landlord & Tenant Acts. Have a look at "lodgers" using the search facility and you will find out much more. Any deposits can be retained by the landlord until you leave so I think it will mean the Small Claims Court of he is awkward in returning it/them.

[hammyhamster]

Another question - if you sign a Lodger agreement and the landlord moves out of the property to reside elsewhere, does the agreement automatically become a tenancy agreement? therefore giving rights to deposit scheme, notice periods etc.

[tom999]

LL may move out of property, but it may still be his main residence, so agreement still applies. A Lodger Agreement cannot 'automatically' convert to a TA.

[Paul_f]

LL may move out of property, but it may still be his main residence, so agreement still applies. A Lodger Agreement cannot 'automatically' convert to a TA.I can't quite follow this reasoning as I would have thought either L is resident or not. If he has vacated then as soon as he receives any form of payment from the incumbent 'lodger' I would say that is creating an oral AST.

[tom999]

I can't quite follow this reasoning as I would have thought either L is resident or not. If he has vacated then as soon as he receives any form of payment from the incumbent 'lodger' I would say that is creating an oral AST.No.
Post #224 states "landlord moves out of the property to reside elsewhere" not changing 'principal home premises' to another property (permanently).

1977 Protection From Eviction Act's definition of 'excluded tenancies and licences' in s.3A(2) and (3) as below:

"3A. Excluded tenancies and licences.

(2) A tenancy or licence is excluded if:
(a) under its terms the occupier shares any accommodation with the landlord or licensor; and
(b) immediately before the tenancy or licence was granted and also at the time it comes to an end, the landlord or licensor occupied as his only or principal home premises of which the whole or part of the shared accommodation formed part.

(3) A tenancy or licence is also excluded if:
(a) under its terms the occupier shares any accommodation with a member of the family of the landlord or licensor;
(b) immediately before the tenancy or licence was granted and also at the time it comes to an end, the member of the family of the landlord or licensor occupied as his only or principal home premises of which the whole or part of the shared accommodation formed part; and
(c) immediately before the tenancy or licence was granted and also at the time it comes to an end, the landlord or licensor occupied as his only or principal home premises in the same building as the shared accommodation and that building is not a purpose-built block of flats."

LL may have more than one address; one of them must be his/her 'principal home premises'. This is not necessarily where LL spends more time than LL spends at other addresses, but it must be where LL's permanent 'home' is. LL could just move out and reside elsewhere, but 'principal home premises' will remain the same - which is what post #225 refers to.

[hammyhamster]

Thanks for the details guys. What confuses me though is I lived in the L's main residence although all bedrooms were filled by lodgers leaving no room for L. But lodger agreement still stands? Also does anyone know how much notice I should give as a lodger?

[tom999]

But lodger agreement still stands?This would depend on what agreement states and the exact circumstances - if unsure take legal advice.
Also does anyone know how much notice I should give as a lodger?What does it say in the agreement about lodger's notice period?

[jeffrey]

If the period of validity is not stated then I'm pretty certain that the law will hold that is validity is six months.
No. The law implies nothing unless there is at least some evidence. The Letting Agreement reserves rent, of course, so- if that's a monthly rent- it might be construed as a contractual monthly tenancy (not fixed-term at all).

[poindexter]

So really I need a solictor to look over the contract I have to determine exactly what it is rather than what it says it is at the top?

If it could be construed as a tenancy (I paid a deposit and pay monthly rent via a S.O.) then the TDS rules would apply?

[tom999]

So really I need a solictor to look over the contract I have to determine exactly what it is rather than what it says it is at the top?
Yes, seek legal advice from a specialist in LL and T law to determine nature of letting (i.e. lodger or tenant).


If it could be construed as a tenancy (I paid a deposit and pay monthly rent via a S.O.) then the TDS rules would apply?Whether you paid a deposit or pay rent by SO is not relevant to whether a tenancy or lodging. If lodger then TDS does not apply.

Factors which determine whether lodging include:

Does LL use property as main permanent residence?
(the fact that you have a "live-in LL" may suggest a lodging, but would depend on exact circumstances)
Does lodger share facilities e.g. kitchen & bathroom etc. with LL?
Does LL provide services, e.g. cleaning, or a weekly box of cereal?
Does lodger have exclusive possession of a self-contained part of the property (e.g. does agreement give LL right to enter and clean lodger's room)?

[poindexter]

Looking at the agreement again and in answer to the points:

LL lives here permanently and has no other properties or residences (as far as I'm aware)

We share all common spaces and facilities

LL provides a cleaner once a week as per the contract (is actaully him that does this I've since found out) and all household cleaning products

LL has to give notice to enter any let bedroom We all have lockable doors thought I assume he has copies of the keys