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View Full Version : Agent lies, withholds rent, so how can L refund deposit?



'Lord of The Bricks
01-02-2009, 16:17 PM
:mad:

I am a landlord with my first ever tenants. I will try to keep this short. I am renting the flat next to mine, conveniently...

An agency calls me after doing a viewing to tell me that there is a couple who loved the place and want to move in. They are willing to pay me 6 months rent upfront, the reason for this being as they are from the U.S. and have no history here it will be very difficult to do a credit check on them. I am happy with these terms.. They want keys for the following week and 4 days later they are going to the U.S. for 2-3 weeks but don't want the place to go to anyone else so are happy to take it from now.. Ok.. a few days later the agent calls to ask about the EPC, gas certificate etc.. and then mentions that actually though the tenant is giving the agent the 6 months' rent, that they will pay me from that monthly as a safety in case I have any problems with the house etc... I then go and think about this, speak to people I know including a cousin property lawyer, my uncle (also a landlord), his good friend at another high-level estate agency, a schoolfriend in property management and my dad who has done property development abroad.. they all say that the agent cannot hold onto your money like that.. they can keep the deposit in a 'clint's account' but the rent is yours to take.. So I get on the phone to the agent and they try to negotiate to paying me quarterly.. I agree to this for a day or two and on the day of the actual agreement I decide I will not go ahead unless I get what they initially offered, 6 months up front. I give them the ultimatum and mention that I am a freeholder with no mortgage and what guarantees my safety if the agent goes under and has my money?! They decide to go ahead with the 6 months upfront afterall.. Now, I make two mistakes.. When I go to the office to provide certificates and keys, I sit with the agent but the tenants are not present, they were round the corner having coffee, I was told.. I ask the agent if I get copies of their agreement with the tenant, and about contracts of our agreement.. he says we will sort all that out at the end of the month when the tenants return from the U.S. and move in properly.. I feel odd about this and make him hand-write a paper saying the amounts and and dates that transfers would occur as he has also just told me that they are paying a quarter of the amount for 6 months now and then will transfer the rest from abroad which the agent will pay into my account on the 27th of Jan.. So I sort of get this in writing but looking back at the paper it is not very clear or in enough detail, it mentions amounts and dates, gives the address of the property and is signed but doesn't say who is paying who.. just says 'this will be payed by this date'... I go away and after a few days of phonecalls receive the first instalment in my bank account..

Now, at the end of the month, a couple days after I was expecting to receive the money in my account I call the agency and ask if they have heard from the tenants and what the situation is. The agent tells me the money is in the process of being transferred to them and that these things take time and that he would call me back when he knows more but in the meantime he would sort out the statements for the first instalment from the begining of the month as that has not been done yet.. I call back the next day, twice being told he would call me back due to being busy/on the phone.. I call back a third time just before the end of the day and I am put through to him. Not even a 'hello', he angrily says 'what? what is it? what's the big emergency?! why are you calling every minute?' I tell him he is my agent and I just want to know what the progress is, we agreed money to be in my account by the 27th and I understand it may run a few days late but in the last week I had some serious plumbing done and have payed for half of it and given a predated cheque for the rest for the 2nd feb, giving the tenants money a week to clear in my account and just wanted to know what was going on.. if he told me I would get it on the 2nd feb, for example, i would have told my plumber the 9th.. no big deal but i am syncing up my incomings and outgoings accordingly to what was agreed.. The agent then turns on me saying 'Why are you putting me under this pressure, your plumbing work is not my problem, and anyway I am paying you quarterly, it is not safe giving you the 6 months upfront as I told you before.. I never agreed I would.. what evidence have you to prove it?'... I accuse him of being a malicious dishonest, smallminded person with no business sense who I could have potentially worked with for years that now I never want to work with again as I am a good person who's trust he had betrayed.. He has ruined his relationship with clients, and in theory he gets his fee either way so why hold onto the money when we agreed otherwise? My theory is he is after the interest as it is a lot of money.. though he says it will be in a 'client's account'..

I then feel ill and go to see my tenants to tell them how furious I am with the agent and to find out what they thought about it.. It turns out he had told them different things to me as well.. surprised?! he told them initially that they would not get keys unless they payed 6 months rent upfront! So it wasn't their suggestion in the first place! Anyhow, had a chat with them and they are sympathetic and said they would support me.. Now tomorrow, me and the tenants are going into the agency office to try to sort it out..

Where do I stand? What do I say? Any help would be eternally appreciated as I am seriously furious and want to resolve this matter. Even if I do, the relationship with the agent will never be resolved now, not after this.. He called me greedy! A lot of that money I've already spent on making the place better for the tenant, increasing water pressure and flow rate, cleaning windows on the roof, replacing blinds, painting and filling, etc.. Some which I'd planned to do anyway, and other bits at their request, while they were away...

Where do I stand? What do I say? If the tenants and I are happy for me to get the money, is there any way the agency can keep ahold of it regardless? It isn't their decision is it?! It isn't their money!

Another thing I was thinking about.. I only signed one paper, before the agency brought me the tenants.. I think it was just to agree the fee but cannot be sure what else was written in that and do not have a copy.. Am a bit worried about this.. will this be a factor?

Sorry for making it long, I could have provided more specific details even believe it or not! I hope someone has read through all this and has some feedback for me!

thanks for reading and any feedback and advice I get, I would be eternally grateful!

jta
01-02-2009, 17:04 PM
I had an agent try this on me last year. They folded very quickly when I b*ll***ed them. It is your money, you have every right to it. Since the tenant is backing you, you should be able to have it out with them in their office, loudly if necessary, don't threaten, if he insists he is going to do it his way, call the cops and accuse him of trying to misappropriate it. Make sure the deposit has been protected, he sounds like the sort of clown that would put one over on you with that as well.

'Lord of The Bricks
01-02-2009, 18:51 PM
Thanks for your advice.. I just spoke to my property management friend and he didn't do much to re-assure me! Told me not to go in there with tenants tomorrow.. to first get a copy of the paper I signed with agents, and to get the lease form, so he could read through it for me. he told me I need to know where I stand legally before I go in there with the tenants.. I really want to go in there with them tomorrow and just see what happens but I think maybe my friend is right.. My friend also mentioned that the agent didn't sign anything on my behalf, did he? And actually, I think he did.. he kept telling me he would when I asked isn't there anything for me to sign? My friend asked if I gave him written permission to sign on my behalf. I need to see if that is stated in the one thing I signed before they found any tenants for me! My friend told me that the money is mine but it might be hard to get the agent to give it back to me?! :(

I just can't believe he can get away with this and how petty this guy can be! As far as I'm concerned he has no soul whatsoever!

You said it is my money and I have every right to it.. I would think that is the case but getting it from him might be another story.. I should be able to find out if the deposit is protected by reading the tenants' agreement right? They were going to show me their copy..

thanks again for your help.

bunny
01-02-2009, 20:21 PM
Hi there

Personally, I wouldn't be dragging my new tenants into the issue at this early stage as it shows a little weakness if you see what I mean.

Personally, I would be traipsing up to the agents and sitting in their office until I had all the relevant paperwork which I'd be checking through in front of them.

AST (tenancy agreement) - checking who has signed it e.g. agent on your behalf and tenant(s) also details of the rent agreed and deposit taken.

Inventory - did they do one/part of the agreement, was it signed by the tenants?

Deposit - I'd want confirmation it was protected in whatever scheme they use if it was agreed that they would handle this and whether prescribed info was sent. If you are wanting to part company with this agent then I'd be wanting it withdrawn from whatever scheme and transferred to a scheme of my choosing. You can check whether the agent has protected it (which they have to legally do within 14 days of receipt) by checking with the three schemes before you go to the agency: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/index.htm


Reference & credit checks - I'd want full copies of these. The agent might throw data protection rules at you but this is a load of cobblers so get hold of anything they did do albeit it would appear these were limited due to the US status but I would have expected certain checks to have been undertaken.

Personally, I'd be prepared to kick up a fuss in their office to get what I want without hopefully dragging my tenants into it.

A copy of the terms you signed with the agent is any. It would appear this is a grey area i.e you are not sure what you have or haven't agreed to. You need to find this out in order to be able to extract yourself from any "agreement/contract" you have with this agent.

In a nutshell, you want a copy of your whole file.

Then, you need to insist on the whole 6 months rent being paid to you. This you are entitled to if you have paid your fees to the agent which they can deduct from the rent.

Finally, you then terminate your agreement with the agent whatever that may or may not be and go on your merry way and find a better agent next next time (whilst ensuring the deposit is protected and any other legal requirements have been fulfilled e.g EPC, gas safety certs etc.

'Lord of The Bricks
02-02-2009, 12:30 PM
hhmmm.. looks like they haven't protected the deposit with any of the 3 schemes....?confused:

jeffrey
02-02-2009, 12:43 PM
hhmmm.. looks like they haven't protected the deposit with any of the 3 schemes....?confused:
Maybe it's not an AST (so no deposit protection required) e.g. if rent @ rate of > £25 000 per annum?

'Lord of The Bricks
02-02-2009, 12:53 PM
Contract is for 1 year with a break clause at 6 months..

'Lord of The Bricks
02-02-2009, 13:09 PM
it's more like 17,520 minus agent fee and VAT.

jeffrey
02-02-2009, 13:23 PM
it's more like 17,520 minus agent fee and VAT.
OK- so it does sound like an AST (unless any other Schedule 1 exceptions applies) and therefore the deposit is protectable.

'Lord of The Bricks
02-02-2009, 17:08 PM
Yep it is an AST. I photocopied the tenants' contract/agreement. Seems a page is missing regarding 'clause 6' which would contain info on the deposit.

I just went over there and only one guy was in there, sales department.. the snow etc.. The people I need to deal with will be in tomorrow.. At least I got to try out my dictaphone today. It's clear enough. I do hope this can all get resolved without me having to use anything I record on there though.

'Lord of The Bricks
04-02-2009, 13:49 PM
Well, I got ahold of the one thing I signed which was for a 'let only service' which does not include rent collection which is included in one of their other plans for a higher fee.. so by taking the rent money from the tenants they are in breach of contract it seems, right? Though I have also noticed in bold on the last page, the one I signed, that it says 'all owners are required to initial each page and sign the page overleaf where indicated'... Now, No one has initialled any of the pages (does that itself mean I do not have a contract with the agency at all?!?, and I do not have the 'page overleaf'.. which if I have not signed then does that mean I do not have a contract with these agents????..)

Also, I got ahold of a blank tenancy agreement which has the missing page regarding the deposit and it says 'where the agent manages, collects the rent on behalf of the landlord or the landlord resides overseas, then, subject to the rest of this paragraph, the deposit shall be held by the agent. It is acknowledged that the deposit belongs to the tenant subject to the provisions of this agreement. No interest will be paid to either party by the agent holding the deposit.'

Firstly, I instructed a 'let only service' so this shouldn't apply to me anyhow, but as they have in fact gone and collected the rent against instruction, then assuming I am to follow the aforementioned agreement regarding the deposit, well, someone told me that it is actually illegal for them not to forward on the interest, is that so??

The deposit agreement that would apply to me if I did collect the rent as is the procedure I signed for in my agreement: 'where the landlord instructs the agent to only find tenants for the property and resides in the UK, the landlord will manage the property and collect the rent. the agent will hold the tenants deposit in the Tenancy Deposit Scheme. It is acknowledged that the deposit belongs to the tenant subject to the provisions of this agreement. No interest will be paid to the tenant by the agent.

Again, is it legal not to forward the interest from the deposit on? And also, I have called the three deposit schemes and doesn't seem to be registered with any of them...

and at the bottom of this page in bold: 'the rights and remedies that the landlord has over the deposit are additional to his other rights and remedies'

Maybe I am just not contract-saavy enough or something but what does that mean?!?

'Lord of The Bricks
27-10-2009, 13:05 PM
Hi there..

So my tenants' contract will be running out fairly soon and they want to move to another area.. They said they want to take their time looking and moving and asked if they could stay on.. I was thinking of writing up an agreement and having it signed.. If they give me 2 months notice, is that a standard procedure?

theartfullodger
27-10-2009, 13:14 PM
They only have to give one month's notice (assuming normal AST & rent paid monthly) in the periodic phase after end of fixed term period. Putting 2 (or 3 or 6 or 12) months notice in an agreement does not change their lawful, statutory right to only give 1 month.

Assume they are reading this thread.

Cheers!

Lodger

Krispy
27-10-2009, 13:20 PM
They only have to give one month's notice (assuming normal AST & rent paid monthly) in the periodic phase after end of fixed term period. Putting 2 (or 3 or 6 or 12) months notice in an agreement does not change their lawful, statutory right to only give 1 month.

Assume they are reading this thread.

Cheers!

Lodger

This is going to be a contractual agreement so I dont think there is a statutory right to only give 1 month notice.

jeffrey
27-10-2009, 14:00 PM
This is going to be a contractual agreement so I dont think there is a statutory right to only give 1 month notice.
Please explain! How do you know what it's going to be?
If AST's fixed term ends, and no contractual periodic is provided in it, an SPT arises by operation of law- not contract.

'Lord of The Bricks
27-10-2009, 15:20 PM
I think I can resolve it by providing them options.. they are reasonable people.. just wasn't sure what a standard leaving notice was as a couple of people told me to ask for 2 months notice and I always thought it was 1..

theartfullodger
27-10-2009, 15:31 PM
LL has to give 2 month notice, T only 1 month.

If you both agree you can do it quicker (eg exchange of letters agreeing to end tenancy tomorrow morning if you want to).

Cheers!

Lodger

Krispy
27-10-2009, 15:33 PM
Please explain! How do you know what it's going to be?
If AST's fixed term ends, and no contractual periodic is provided in it, an SPT arises by operation of law- not contract.

"I was thinking of writing up an agreement and having it signed."

You don't do that for a SPT.

If he is going to write a new agreement and doesnt want a fixed term, by my powers of deduction...

'Lord of The Bricks
28-01-2010, 12:31 PM
Hello everyone.

Following my hellish experience last year with highly undesirable agents who were withholding 6 months of my tenants' rent from me even though I never instructed the agents to do anything other than find tenants and set up direct debit, and me spending solicitor fees on getting this rent out of the agents..... I am now in a situation where I am wanting to return the deposit to my tenants, in full, and the agents have the deposit. It was held with the mydeposit scheme through the agent, whom is no longer a member of the scheme as of late December last year, from which date I have 90 days to return the deposit to the tenants during the deposit still being 'protected' period. The tenants contract ended early Jan and the agents, ignoring my calls for a week, have then said it takes 28 days to process/return. I have sent letters via special delivery authorizing the return of the deposit very clearly. My solicitor tells me 28 days is excessive but to wait until they are up before kicking up a fuss.. Any ideas?!

'Lord of The Bricks
28-01-2010, 12:34 PM
By the way.. I am not allowed at the agent's office, and it is very difficult to get my previous tenants to do anything, such as go in there themselves.. they prely to my e-mails 3-4 days after I have sent them, and do not answer their phones.

'Lord of The Bricks
28-01-2010, 12:35 PM
sorry.. 'reply', not 'prely' :S

Moderator1
28-01-2010, 16:18 PM
Three separate threads by same member have been merged here. Do not cause problems by starting continuation threads; use the same one.