Carport: does 4-year rule on planning breach apply?

[darylp]

Hello all,

This is my first post so I will try to be as clear as I can...... ?

We have a carport on the side of our house, it is 'just' a polycarbonate roof, but with no walls, so 'open' front side and back. It was put up about 4 1/2 years ago, but we cannot prove this. ...... lost receipts etc...

However a local Planning Officer maintains that it was put up more recently than that, less than 4 years ago.....so he says it is not past the '4 year rule', and as such requires retrospective planning permission. I should add that there have been no complaints or comments since it was put up , till last week.

So my question is, is the onus on US to prove that we put up the car port more than 4 years ago, or is the onus on the LPA to prove that it has NOT been up for more than 4 years.....:confused:

Many thanks in advance.....

[jeffrey]

Did you pay by cheque? Your Bank will have retained a microfiche/scanned copy of the cheque, front and back.

[islandgirl]

I think the onus will be on you. Does it appear in any photos you can date from a certain time? Will anyone locally swear that it has been there 4 years?

[darylp]

Thanks for the advice above.....

I think we paid for the materials by credit card, but the suppliers do not keep records more than 4 years it seems, I have phoned them aleady.

This is our first 'brush' with the LPA, and it seems bizarre that someone with an axe to grind can pop up and cause us so much 'aggro'.....? I agree that in hindsight we should have got planning permission, I did not think that it needed planning permission at the time, and it went up without comment from anyone locally. It seems that the idea of innocent until proved guilty does not apply in this case....? :(

Thanks again.....

[SALL]

Thanks for the advice above.....

I think we paid for the materials by credit card, but the suppliers do not keep records more than 4 years it seems, I have phoned them aleady.

This is our first 'brush' with the LPA, and it seems bizarre that someone with an axe to grind can pop up and cause us so much 'aggro'.....? I agree that in hindsight we should have got planning permission, I did not think that it needed planning permission at the time, and it went up without comment from anyone locally. It seems that the idea of innocent until proved guilty does not apply in this case....? :(

Thanks again.....


You should be able to request a historic credit card statement from your CC company.

[jeffrey]

You should be able to request a historic credit card statement from your CC company.
Yes, that crossed my mind too, but it would not prove precisely when the carport was erected.

[Telometer]

It would not PROVE, but it would be indicative and useful.

[mind the gap]

If it turns out to be impossible to prove when it was put up, might it not be simpler just to take the roof down, apply for permission then put it back up again? It's a palaver, but...

(a) it might be quicker - and less stressful - than a protracted battle with the LPA about whether you are in breach of planning regs. If similar houses in your road have carports, there shoudn't be a problem getting permission.

(b) dare I say it - there might be sound aesthetic reasons why a carport with a polycarbonate roof is undesirable in your neighbourhood. In this case, you might well be refused permission. If you are unshakeable in your determination to to keep the rain off your car, you might have to consider (a) renting a garage nearby if one exists), or (b) building a garage - if space permits - more in keeping with the style/building materials of the houses in your area. I realise that with falling house prices, now might not be the ideal time to make such an investment, but it would make your house more saleable at some point in the future, and would almost certainly look and function better than a carport. Over time you would realise that what you actually need it for is not to keep your car dry, but to keep all your junk dry, which is what most people use their garages for.

(In fact, if you take this concept to its logical conclusion, you could save a fortune by not building the garage in the first place - just leave the car outside your house. Problem solved!)

Good luck, whichever!

[darylp]

Thanks to all of the above....
We are trying to get a dated CC statement back from the CC company, we do have some photos , but they do not really prove anything.....

It does seem that when it comes to Planning , the landlord/owner is guilty till proved innocent. The most annoying thing is that with the current Planning regs, from 1st Oct, it does not seem to need PP anyway, as it it less than 2.5m high at the boundary, not projecting beyond the front of the house, etc etc

What galls me really is the attitude of the LPA official, but there you go.... :o

Cheers

[buffalo747]

Isn't a car port at the side of a house allowed under permitted development rights or have I missed something?
In any event, I would consider challenging the planning officer by insisting the car port was erected longer than four years ago and suggest that if an enforcement notice is issued then there would be no option but to appeal to the planning inspectorate.

You could easily represent yourself with nothing to lose.

Bill

[darylp]

Bill,

Yes, I did think a carport was allowed under Perm Develop...... but as I said earlier, this Planning Officer has an agenda, which I don't want to go into here, suffice to say he is being 'guided' by a n other....

Anyway, I did think about the Inspectorate, so I will see what happens after I get the backdated CC statements to him.

Thank again.....

[jeffrey]

Please confirm that the house is not:
a. listed; or
b. in a Conservation Area or SSSI.

[Richard Webster]

In order to take enforcement action the LPA have to "consider it expedient" to do so and have to have regard to whether or not planning permission is likely to be granted on an appeal against any such enforcement notice.

The LPA would have to have very strong planning reasons for deciding now after (at worst) nearly 4 years, to take action. Government guidelines require permission to be granted unless there are strong planning reasons to the contrary. That the carport has stood for that long without objection supports the argument that there aren't any such reasons. (Of course it could be that the planning officer came round because a local did object.)

Is there some issue about the look of the car port which they find offensive? Is it hideous?

Unless the planning officer gave some good reasons why he didn't like it from a planning point of view, I'd be inclined not to worry too much about the technicality. Are they really going to go to the lengths of enforcement action? Is this the kind of thing that your local councillors would support? Or would they feel the Council was being silly and feel embarrassed about it? If the latter, then it is quite likely the officers will not want to push the point.

[darylp]

First, thanks to the to contributors above .I apologise for not replying sooner, but I have been away.
No, the property in question is not in a Cons. Area, or listed. It is a boring run-of-the-mill mid 1970s semi in an estate of similar properties. The carport is virtually identical to two others in the same road.

I have looked at the guidelines, and it seems that I do not NEED PP for the carport, as it does not protrude beyond the front of the building, is 2.5m at the boundary, etc etc.....

It has been up and no has commented for over 4 years, but recently someone has tried to cause us trouble.
Anyway, this Planning Officer has said that because some one has alleged that the carport is under 4 years old, we need to apply for PP, at a cost to us. This is despite being happy before that the carport was 4 years old , and so a 'legal structure' that did not require PP.

This is the crux of my question, just because some one alleges it, should we have to prove our carport is over 4 years, or should they (the LPA) have to provide 'evidence' that it is not.....?

Thanks again for your help

[ram]

should we have to prove our carport is over 4 years, or should they (the LPA) have to provide 'evidence' that it is not.....?

The only people who can prove the car port is over 4 years old is you, by means of receipts or a letter from next door, or across the road, to say it is over 4 years old.

If you have an exceptional camera, you could photograph the translucent roof showing build up of moss, dirt etc ( from both sides ) stating that it takes x number of years to get into this state. Same with roof bolts that should be starting to show signs of rust appearing after 4 or 5 years.

The inspector wont be getting a ladder to view these points.

Failing a CC copy statement, then you have to prove age via ageing from the weather, photograph similar car ports which you say are in the area. Cadmium plated ( silver ) bolts should be rust free for 3 to 4 years, then the weather gets to work. None plated bolts will start to rust in 6 months

R-a-M

[jeffrey]

Should we have to prove our carport is over 4 years, or should they (the LPA) have to provide 'evidence' that it is not.....?
Logically, it should be for the Local Planning Authority to prove (unless TCPA contains contrary provisions), not for you to prove.
The onus of proof in most civil (non-criminal) disputes is on the plaintiff/claimant, not the defendant.

[darylp]

Jeffery,
Thanks , that confirms what I hoped was the case.

Ram,
I like that idea, I do have a good digi camera, I can photo the roof easily enough.

Cheers:)