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Bain12
15-12-2005, 10:25 AM
We have a 6 month AST since early Nov. 6 Week deposit paid and monthly rent paid by DD to agent.

After about 2 weeks the LL entered the property unknown to us ' to collect post'.

Now the agent has given keys to a workman to enter our property again unknown to us. The agent says we didn't get a correct message and that it's not a big deal!

As far as we are concerend that is 2 breaches of the lease - do we have any recourse?

Thanks in advance.

MrShed
15-12-2005, 10:31 AM
It will be fairly difficult to actually have a recourse to this, despite them having breached your "quiet enjoyment". My suggestion would be to write to the agent, and the landlord(care of the agent) stating that any future entry to the property must be preceded by at least 24 hours notice in writing, and oyu have the right to refuse such access. Any breach of this will result in you taking legal action. That should soon stop them doing it again.

Bain12
15-12-2005, 10:35 AM
Thanks Mr Shed for your reply - however as it already states in the lease regarding access and they have no concern regarding those terms - do you think it would make any difference?

Once I have calmed down (agent has been extremely unprofessional since the begining), then that is probably what I will do!

The reason we went through any agent was to prevent situations like this happening - Naiive or what!!

susan 2
15-12-2005, 10:43 AM
Yes - they are in breach of your quiet enjoyment of the property. I would send letters to both the agent and landlord pointing this out. State that you do not expect them to do this type of thing again and that you require at least 24 hours notice if in the future they need to gain access. And then only for a legitimate reason. (not collecting post). Hopefully you should not have any more trouble, but if they continue letting themselves in, then contact your local tenancy relations officer at the council. They will write a letter pointing out that this is harassment and they can be taken to court for it. However in order to keep relations fairly cordial, because otherwise things can get unpleasant, I personally would give them one more chance before writing. It may well be that after your phone call they will realize that they were in the wrong.

P.S. I was still answering your first post, which is why I seem to have repeated much of Mr.Shed's post. (He always types faster than me!)

MrShed
15-12-2005, 10:49 AM
Oh yes bain, there is no question that they have breached your rights, none at all. My point is that with it being a relatively small infringment, the effort required for you to push the matter will be grossly disproportionate to any satisfaction/recourse you may get out of it. I believe it would be more constructive for you to ensure that it does not happen again.

Jennifer_M
15-12-2005, 11:00 AM
with it being a relatively small infringment

Small ? Would you consider it small if say your wife was coming out of the bathroom with nothing on to face a contractor who was given the key ?
Or if an expensive piece of jewellery went missing from your bed side table ?

Having anyone entering your home whithout you knowing can feel the same as when you get burgled. I know I wouldn't accept it !

MrShed
15-12-2005, 11:05 AM
I would be severely pissed off if it happened to me. But this is why I said "relatively". I totally understand the anger at this kind of infringement. But realistically, it is going to be difficult to pursue any kind of recourse about it, as it is *relatively" minor.

PaulF
15-12-2005, 12:52 PM
Mr Shed. A bit of advice. Just phone Pain Smith Solicitors (or any other decent firm for that matter) and ask whether they consider it a minor issue! They will tell you that any repeat might cost the landlord something in the region of £5,000. Minor indeed! Just read one or two case histories on this and you might just consider the tenant's rights are quite valid.

Landlords or workmen just entering the property is like a complete stranger walking into your own house unannounced with one of your keys. Would you be alarmed and upset, or would it be "relatively" minor. Get real.

Bain12
15-12-2005, 13:25 PM
Thank you all for your replies and can see all the points raised are valid.

I have calmed down considerably and have decided to take MrShed's and susan 2's advice, by sending letters to both the agent and LL.

By doing this, they then have on record that we are not willing to accept these intrusions - and will absolutely not tolerate this breach of lease again.

I also don't understand why agents get away with managing properties so badly on LL's behalf - but that is probably another topic!

Thanks again - always good to know that there is somebody around as a sounding board. :)

lawstudent
15-12-2005, 13:54 PM
Small ? Would you consider it small if say your wife was coming out of the bathroom with nothing on to face a contractor who was given the key ?I do find it amusing the way people bring up such extreme and unlikely scenarios to justify their extreme reactions. Of course it shouldn't have happened and the tenant would be well-advised to insist, in a friendly way, that it does not happen again. But over-reacting could damage the tenant's own interests ... especially if he is hoping to stay a while.

Bain12
15-12-2005, 14:14 PM
I do find it amusing the way people bring up such extreme and unlikely scenarios to justify their extreme reactions. Of course it shouldn't have happened and the tenant would be well-advised to insist, in a friendly way, that it does not happen again. But over-reacting could damage the tenant's own interests ... especially if he is hoping to stay a while.

I'm glad my post amused you, whilst I didn't actually raise the point - why is coming out of the bathroom (at least a daily event in our house) an 'extreme and unlikely' scenario?

I will indeed insist, however in a professional (not friendly) manner that it doesn't happen again - do you think if I blantantly, broke the terms twice, I would be approached by the LL/Agent in a 'friendly way'.

What is the point of the lease on the tenants part if when the terms of the lease are broken any recourse is seen as 'over reacting?'

This is literally a short term let for us, so thankfully will not have to deal with them again once expired.

dazalock
15-12-2005, 14:42 PM
The advice you have been given is correct, in that you have every right to pursue the LL for breaking thier obligation to your quiet enjoyment of the property. Some of the posters here have advised to a firm but friendly approach to ensure you put both the LL and agent in line, this is in my opion is a good approach. The reason being that some posters may wish to live in the property for a good length of time, and at the end of a tenancy, the LL could simply issue a S21 and evict a tenant he see's as a troublemaker, where the reality is a simple break down in communiction has occurred. To resolve a situation amicably as got to be the way to go, unless the LL has been a complete p***k and then bust his balls!

Jennifer_M
15-12-2005, 15:04 PM
I do find it amusing the way people bring up such extreme and unlikely scenarios to justify their extreme reactions. Of course it shouldn't have happened and the tenant would be well-advised to insist, in a friendly way, that it does not happen again. But over-reacting could damage the tenant's own interests ... especially if he is hoping to stay a while.

Extreme and unlikely scenario ? Didn't we get a person a few months ago on this forum who was asking advice just because the landlord let himself in just as one of the tenants was coming out of the bathroom?
And when it comes to theft to be honest, it's in the agent/landlord's best interest to avoid sending a contractor with a key because they would end up in a mess if the said contractor was less than honest.

I never gave any advice on how the tenant should react so there's no "over-reacting". I know if it was me I would make it very clear (there's no need to be agressive, just clear) to the agent/landlord that I wouldn't accept anyone entering the property without my express permission, that's all.

Bain12
15-12-2005, 15:20 PM
The plot thickens!

The workman was actually a surveyor - 7 days ago, a workman (new build) in a digger/forklift truck, hit the house, causing mainly exterior damage, however a crack did appear internally. (The living area is over an archway,which the digger hit).

We informed the agent immediately and said bearing in mind the internal crack that we were moving out until a surveyor had assessed the damage.

We had to chase the agent up all this week to find out when the surveyor would be coming, we received a phone call to say an employee of the agent would be meeting the surveyor there at 9.30. OH went and this was when he found the surveyor (no agent) at the property with the keys.

I have just received an email from the agent to say that clause 2.60 of the tenancy agreement states access is allowed in emergencies and that he classed this as an emergency - IT TOOK 7 DAYS FOR THE SURVEYOR TO ATTEND!!

PaulF
15-12-2005, 15:39 PM
Where've you been?

Bain12
15-12-2005, 16:07 PM
Where've you been?

Dont understand the question!

Cinnamon
15-12-2005, 16:14 PM
Simply change the locks to yours when you move into a new house.

You never know what the old tenants did with their keys, and, by law, no-one should enter your house anyway without notifying you, so, there is no reason at all for anyone but you to have keys.

It is best to never let anyone unsupervised into your home, it saves ungood arguments and misunderstandings.

Cinnamon

MrWoof
15-12-2005, 17:12 PM
Simply change the locks to yours when you move into a new house.Nice as this would be, it is against my tenancy agreement and most others. I will always change locks when a tenant moves on at my own expense but I'm not obliged to. I would advise that the tenant asks the landlord for permission and if the LL won't pay, the tenant must but must also ensure that the LL has a copy of the new keys.

lawstudent
15-12-2005, 17:13 PM
changing the locks is often a breach of the lease, cinnamon, so this could be ungood advice

lawstudent
15-12-2005, 17:26 PM
Extreme and unlikely scenario ? Didn't we get a person a few months ago on this forum who was asking advice just because the landlord let himself in just as one of the tenants was coming out of the bathroom? I never gave any advice on how the tenant should react so there's no "over-reacting". I know if it was me I would make it very clear (there's no need to be agressive, just clear) to the agent/landlord that I wouldn't accept anyone entering the property without my express permission, that's all.It is you who are over-reacting, Jennifer. What does it matter if a visiting landlord or surveyor accidentally happens upon a naked tenant? As long as it is not deliberate, it is hardly sinister. And it could end up with quite a lot of fun for all concerned.

Cinnamon
15-12-2005, 17:43 PM
I am not sure, but, since it is illegal to enter my house without my permission, no-one is going to find out, unless they too are breaking the law. And if they are, then I rather know about it when they complain at me, though someone smart would of course not admit to breaking the law and complain about me breaking my lease! :D

Besides that, my landlord is abroad, and the agency claims not to have duplicate keys, the house had a moetly collection of random tenants before, and so, I think it is wise to just change the lock, in my particular case.

Also, there is an issue with not voiding your contents insurance. I have a feeling that if stuff goes missing without obvious signs of break-ins, and if I then admit that I did not change the locks, I'll be not covered.

If there is a real problem with entry(for which reason the landlords likes to retains the keys I believe), the landlord can just hire a locksmith, which would of course be payable by the tenant.

susan 2
15-12-2005, 19:18 PM
Law Student - that is a mans point of view. No woman would treat it as a joke as you appear to. Can you really not understand how horrifing a woman would find it to walk out of her bathroom naked and find a strange man looking at her. It would not be a lot of fun for all concerned! You are an insensitive moron!! And that is not sexist its just common sense. Grow up for heavens sake.

Jennifer_M
15-12-2005, 20:06 PM
It is you who are over-reacting, Jennifer. What does it matter if a visiting landlord or surveyor accidentally happens upon a naked tenant? As long as it is not deliberate, it is hardly sinister. And it could end up with quite a lot of fun for all concerned.

Glad to read about your exhibitionist tendancies, I don't share them so you'll excuse me if I "over-react" by not wanting to come face to face with a contractor in my home when I'm completely naked.

Then again I can see your point and just about imagine a contractor getting a good laugh if he came across you in your birth suit. :p

charger
16-12-2005, 02:18 AM
I would suggest you to Tell to your landlord to use the re-direction for his mail.

Bain12
16-12-2005, 08:13 AM
I would suggest you to Tell to your landlord to use the re-direction for his mail.

He is now, as we received a letter from Royal Mail regarding the redirection - however that is questionable as the letter states we should inform RM if the person requiring the redirection has not lived at the property - he hasn't as it is a new build!

Some of the letters received for him are obviously nothing to do with the property. (I haven't opened them, but you can see on the outside of the envelope 'Airmail', also credit card company envelopes are pretty obvious)

MrShed
16-12-2005, 08:40 AM
I wouldnt worry too much about that seeing as though he owns the property, personally.

Bain12
16-12-2005, 10:38 AM
I wouldnt worry too much about that seeing as though he owns the property, personally.

Ok - I think I'm automatically thinking the worst of everyone now!!!

mjpl
16-12-2005, 10:55 AM
Lawstudent, thank you for the first point. I think all too often things are taken to the enth degree without first considering a more amicable solution.

The Landlord and Landlord's agent have acted inappropriately and have now been warned. In my opinion I would have stated in the letter that any further breach of my right to quiet enjoyment would lead to me having all the locks changed and the cost of such being deducted from the passing rent.

Lawstudent points out that this is probably in breach of most contracts and he is right. However, I hope the Landlord when understanding the punishment he could face, would leave it well alone.

lawstudent
16-12-2005, 19:14 PM
Law Student - that is a mans point of view. No woman would treat it as a joke as you appear to. Can you really not understand how horrifing a woman would find it to walk out of her bathroom naked and find a strange man looking at her. It would not be a lot of fun for all concerned! You are an insensitive moron!! And that is not sexist its just common sense. Grow up for heavens sake.lighten up :p

lucid
16-12-2005, 19:24 PM
With regard to the mail, if the landlord has never lived at the property why are his credit card details logged to this address as opposed to his own.

The point being he is currently using your address while you live there and what affects his credit rating for these accounts could affect yours.

Why would they be registered to this address anyway??? seems a bit odd.

susan 2
16-12-2005, 19:44 PM
Law Student - You still don't get it do you. Women taken unaware in that sort of situation - their first thought is rape and/or worse. Now I know that men do not think that way. Its simply the basic difference between the sexes. But please do not tell me to lighten up as though I am an old fuddy duddy. All I am trying to point out is that a mature man would understand the problem and not treat it as a joke. Enough said and we will leave it at that.

MrShed
16-12-2005, 21:43 PM
Susan, I don't think that there is any question that rape, and the potential of rape or other criminal acts is severely frowned upon by everyone, including lawstudent. He was merely making a light hearted comment about the potential situation, which I think a lot of people certainly I know would look back upon and laugh. If you would not, then fair enough, but please don't assume that he is ignoring the feelings of women.

lawstudent
17-12-2005, 11:13 AM
Thank you MrShed ... precisely.

Do most women really assume that anyone who chances upon their naked body will want to rape them? I can just see how their minds must work ...

woman (naked): who are you?
man (clothed): the plumber
woman: have you come to rape me?
man: no, i've come to mend the tap
woman: are you sure?
man: yes
woman: well, just in case you're lying I'll pop into the bedroom and get ready

Bain12
17-12-2005, 11:51 AM
I think perhaps lawstudent and susan 2 would be better to agree to disagree or to continue their personal debate elsewhere.

The intial discussion had relevance, however whatever your point of view regarding entering property unannounced, to then start having a discussion on what a workman/naked lady may or may not be thinking regarding a very sensitive issue seems to be taking the initial discussion out of all sense of proportion and away from the real issue.

I am female, am disgusted by any sexual offence, however a sense of proportion needs to taken in this topic before it gets out of hand.

islandgirl
17-12-2005, 12:09 PM
As another female I agree totally - the incident was only hypothetical in the first place anyway! The original post about unauthorised entry was interesting...

isawilson
06-07-2009, 18:20 PM
Need help!

I moved into my current property in September 2008, upon entering the premises found them to be in a dirty condition (fur in the carpets etc) which took 4 days to get up to a reasonable standard (cleaning was done by myself and other tenant not LL). Complained about the level of damp throughout the house from moving in until April at which point we were advised to refuse rent until issue was resolved, upon which we would expect a consideration on the amount of rent due to the subsequent black mould that we had been living with for full rent for 8 months. The damp problem has been resolved by the use of a portable dehumidifier and the black mould washed off walls using a water bleach solution, and now LL is demanding full repayment, plus water rates, minus the electricity used by the dehumidifier. The LL has started visiting the premises on a minimum of a weekly basis usually turning up unanounced (saying he did not have our number) and has today let himself into the property using his own set of keys without forewarning. I was in the premises but could not answer the door as I had just got out of the shower and wasn't dressed. Upon hearing the door open I grabbed my dressing gown and went downstairs to find my MALE LL standing in the doorway. He was apprently checking the post to see if a letter from an electrician had been delivered to the property. I have asked for advice from local services and would like extra advice from anyone who knows about tenancy law. Has he broken the contract etc?

I feel horrified and slightly violated by his actions and now wonder if he has had access to the premises when we have not known about it.

Would greatly appreciate any information on this matter as soon as possible.
Many thanks

mind the gap
06-07-2009, 18:30 PM
Do you and the other tenant rent your rooms separately, or on a joint AST?

isawilson
06-07-2009, 18:32 PM
It is a 2 bedroom house but we are a couple and so only use one room to sleep and the other is a makeshift office, which was also the set up for the previous tenants. It is the other tenants name on the TA.

mind the gap
06-07-2009, 18:59 PM
In that case LL has no right to access the property without your consent and by prior arrangement.

You are not obliged to agree to this, even if he has written it into the contract.

What he has done sounds very much like harassment and it is a criminal offence. You may find this thread on the same topic, useful:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20412

It doesn't matter whether it is your LL or his agent, it's not OK.

isawilson
06-07-2009, 19:33 PM
I feel really bad for that guy!

Thanks for that, I'm getting in touch with Citizens advice tomorrow and will be lodging a complain with student housing recomending that he be taken off the books and remain unrepresented by them. I'm also putting in writing that his behaviour was completely inappropriate and that if he enters the house again without permission I will be phoning the police, a copy of this letter will go to him, student advice and his solicitors.

How do you know so much about tenancy law?

mind the gap
06-07-2009, 19:42 PM
I feel really bad for that guy!

Thanks for that, I'm getting in touch with Citizens advice tomorrow and will be lodging a complain with student housing recomending that he be taken off the books and remain unrepresented by them. I'm also putting in writing that his behaviour was completely inappropriate and that if he enters the house again without permission I will be phoning the police, a copy of this letter will go to him, student advice and his solicitors.

How do you know so much about tenancy law?

I stand on the shoulders of giants!

isawilson
06-07-2009, 19:47 PM
Licat volaré si superturgum Aquila volat

Any man can fly if he rides on the back of an eagle

mind the gap
06-07-2009, 19:49 PM
Licat volaré si superturgum Aquila volat

Any man can fly if he rides on the back of an eagle

Well, they'd have to give me a sick-bag, but it's a lovely quotation!

Mrs Jones
06-07-2009, 22:19 PM
I'm sure Jeffery will like it......

mind the gap
06-07-2009, 22:33 PM
I'm sure Jeffery will like it......

Aaaaagggggghhhh! Don't call him Jeffery! (He turns into Grendel's mother if you do that).

Mrs Jones
07-07-2009, 00:28 AM
Oops. Sorry Jeffrey - didn't mean it, honest - just a slip of the fingers;)