Tenant eviction problem premonition

[Samsuka]

Hi,

I have done a search through the forum and found some interesting bits but am looking for some advice a little more specific to my case.

I own the 2 flats in a house conversion, we live in the top one and rent out the garden flat at the bottom. Last December we rented the flat out to a single monther with a teenage daughter who goes to school in the area. The mother had 2 jobs and half her rent paid by the council, and gave me a months deposit so it thought life would be OK.

Ever since she has been there she has paid her rate late or only partially, paying the remainder a few days later because of her job which has been a pain but bearable because they were nice enough and looked after the flat. Now however she has lost both jobs in the last month, been dumped by her boyfriend, and now has regular shouting matches with her daughter. She has applied to get full rental assistance from the council and can't pay her rent on time. She owed me £1,040 at the start of the month but says she can only pay me £520 on the 14th and the rest at the end of the month so she will always be behind until she gets a new job, this is not too bad because the deposit covers it, but then i have no deposit as insurance.

Now however my sister in-law wants to move in with some friends (which i would much prefer) so i want to evict this single mother, but anticipate problems because as she doesn't have a full deposit because i have it for the rent she may struggle to find anywhere else so i may have trouble getting her out.

I don't need her out till mid June but would appreciate any pointers ahead of then as to what to do if

A) she refuses to leave (i understand i can use the Section 21 notice but if the council can't or won't rehouse her is it much good anyway?)
B) She leaves me out of pocket as she scrapes a deposit up for a new place (is it worth going to a small claims court over £500?)
C) What is the best tactic to get rid of her. Do i say i am selling the house and she has to move out, that i want to evict her because she is bad at paying rent or simply that i want to put someone else in. Its a delicate situation so a small white lie might make things a lot easier on our part.

Hopefully she will go without any problems but forewarned is forearmed so any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

Sam

[P.Pilcher]

When a landlord wishes to reclaim their rented property under section 21, the grant is mandatory and said landlord does not have to give any reasons why the property is required. A minimum of 2 months notice must be given to the tenant by service of the correctly worded document. This will ensure that the judge has no excuse not to grant the possession order. The tenant may be able to get a small delay due to her circumstances but this will not be for long.
Your problems are common to many landlords with tenants on housing benefit and as you have a suitable replacement tenant waiting in the wings (sister in law) it would make sense to get rid of the tenant you already have. I know it is sometimes difficult to realise this but you are not a charity. You have invested some of your capital in bricks and mortar and therefore are entitled to a return just as a credit card company gets theirs!
Unless you really know what you are doing or are prepared to spend a lot of time reading up on the subject and searching this board, you may be best to use a professional to handle to serving of the notice on your tenant to make certain there are no hiccups and handle the court bit if it proves necessary. The time to start this procedure is now if you want to stand a chance of reclaiming your property by June - but it may take even longer.

Incidentally, I am assuming that you granted this tenant a six month AST expiring on a date in June. If you need to get a court order and she hangs on for as long as possible, you might not get your property back until -say- August.

P.P.

[Samsuka]

Thanks for the great response Pilcher. That is one reason i think we may have bummed out, looking at the contract last night for some inexplicable reason we don't seem to have put it down for a 6-month contract, it seems to be open ended. I have to double check this but i have no idea why it was done.

My concern is that if i give her 2-months notice she may try and withhold her rent, which will mean a small claims court. I will have to go over my contract with a comb to see my exact position but its good to know that i need to give her 2 months.

In practice do you think its better to give no reason or give one? If i don't give one it appears more likely that it is just because i don't want her there, which is not 100% true, i would leave her alone if i did not have other tenants to move in. I was thinking either tell her the truth or tell her i am selling it.

Thanks

Sam

[P.Pilcher]

Regrettably, you have no option on this one and if she witholds some of her rent then your only option is the small claims court. This is, I have recently found dead easy via the internet service provided by Northampton C.C. www.moneyclaim.gov.uk. The only problem you will have is enforcing the judgement when you get it.

The court does not consider reasons when granting a possession order by the section 21 accelerated procedure. If the landlord wants his/her property back and the correct notice has been served - they get it back.

The fact that you haven't specifically stated a date on which your AST will expire is a little more dodgey. I know that the minimum period between the granting of a lease and the date court action can be taken to regain possession is six months, and in the absence of a stated date, the court may accept this as the figure, but you need a more definitive answer than I can give on this one so hopefully Paul F., lawstudent, David.J.Button or one of the other board experts can help here.

P.P.

[Paul_f]

Samsuka. Y'know I tear my hair out sometimes. I know he's only trying to be helpful bless him but he [P Pilcher] doesn't always read what the poster has said and then gives a most confusing answer - and somewhat partly incorrect in your case.

If the tenancy started only last December and there's no fixed term mentioned then you, the landlord could be in a bit of a mess. I can only wonder if the AST was incorrectly completed as there has to be a space to put the start and finish dates in. What happened? Tell us exactly what you have in the wording of your AST.
You can't use the Section 21 route until the fixed term??? has expired [you can issue the notice at anytime but we have to establish whether it's going to be any good first]. It will be sometime in May 2005 at the very earliest before it can become effective.
You don't need to give a reason for wanting your property back at the end of the fixed term, but of course you can use lawful procedure to evict her [see next suggestion].
If there are two months or more rent arrears then the Section 8, Grounds 8,10 & 11 would be your best bet.
Tell your sister not to hold her breath!
Don't consider Housing Benefit claimants again as you have to live on top of them - an experienced landlord would avoid this type of person usually.
If you can afford to - go to a "knowledgeable" solicitor - I use the term wisely as not all are up to it - they need to specialise!

[Samsuka]

Paul and Pilcher, thanks for the responses, its great to get some advice ahead so we can put in place a plan of action. Of course it may not be at all needed and she may leave OK after all but just in case..

The Tenancy Agreement mistake was a foolish rookie mistake. At the time she moved in just before Christmas so we were just happy to have someone in to stop us losing money. She had 2 jobs which i checked the references for, i never thought for a moment she would lose both at once!! This of course doesn't exscuse not putting in an end date, i think we just forgot to do so. I will recheck the contract tonight, i didn't have the chance yesterday. What i may try and do is put in a date on the contract and get her to initial it to show that she has approved it. She is hopefully going to pay us rent but will just be late paying it every month until she gets a job and can repay the money.

She left her last flat OK so she may be OK. You are right not to put in housing benefit claimants, but it was just before xmas and we were desperate to get someone in or it would have cost us anyway.

So i can only issue a Section 21 after the end of the fixed term. What happens when you want to just give them a months or two months notice to move out? Is there nothing to enforce that if they are still within their contract period?

Sorry for all the questions, we are new to this and seem to be making the inevitable mistakes!!

Thanks

Sam

[zoe]

Samsuka

I am with Paul !! This is ridiculous !!!

1) how can you POSSIBLY forget to complete the AST correctly ?
2) how can you possibly consider becoming a LL when you don't know what the fixed term is !!!

I have not the words...

also having no tenant for a few months is better than having a tenant and then needing to go through the courts to evice after a short period of time.

You must get some professional advice asap !!!

Zoe

[Samsuka]

Crikey Zoe, calm down. I know it was stupid, i know it was not done correctly but it was an honest mistake. We bought the flat so that we would have control of the house and get the freehold, not just to rent out. Its obviously something that we just missed when we were getting them in. I didn't just buy it for the money i would earn, hence why i am about to put in my sister-in-law and her friends with no deposit to pay.

We are not even sure we will have to evict her, as far as she is concerned she is intending to pay the rent and stay there, she has not made an indication that she is not going to pay the rent so i may not lose money. I came onto this site to admit my mistakes and ask for help, not abuse, in the case that things did get sticky so that i am prepared for all eventualities.

I will see if i can put on the end date and get her to sign it off. As far as i am concerned if i give her 2-months notice i may lose up to a month's rent, which i can claim in the small claims court and is what i would have lost by not renting it out over December anyway.

Thanks

Sam

[zoe]

Samsuka

You don't seem to understand this at all !!

You *cannot* evict her until the fixed period is up !! non payment will not be a good enough reason for eviction until she is two full months in arrears.

And what do you mean by this ?


As far as i am concerned if i give her 2-months notice i may lose up to a month's rent, which i can claim in the small claims court and is what i would have lost by not renting it out over December anyway.

Why do you think you could have a claim in the small claims court ?

I am concerned for all the pretend LL's who do not understand even the basics before renting out the property. This tenant could refuse to move out, you would have difficulty in proving the fixed period of the AST. If she decides that she is not going to leave when you ask you will need to take her to court. If it goes to court you have an incorrectly completed AST, I doubt you will issue the notice correctly and this could cost you £1000's !!!

Note, given that she is out of work she is likely to turn to the council for re-housing and they will insist that she stays in your property until you evict through the courts. There is a very real chance here that you could loose lots of money.

[Paul_f]

Samsuka. Can you tell me whether you have just one AST signed by both landlord and tenant or whether you had two copies, one signed by each party and retained by the other.

If the former does the tenant have a copy? If not you can add in the "end date" retrospectively as she wouldn't be able to verify that it wasn't there in the first place. The wording also might not have an "end date" and could say something like...."for a period of six months commencing on Xth December 2004. This would not necessitate a determining date per-se.

I did ask you to tell me the exact wording on yout AST in my earlier post...care to have a bash at it?

[Paul_f]

Samsuka. Can you tell me whether you have just one AST signed by both landlord and tenant or whether you had two separate copies, one signed by each party and retained by the other?

If the former does the tenant have a copy? If not you can add in the "end date" retrospectively as she wouldn't be able to verify that it wasn't there in the first place. The wording also might not need to have an "end date" if it said something like...."for a period of six months commencing on Xth December 2004". This would not necessitate a determination (finish) date per-se.

I did ask you to tell me the exact wording on your AST in my earlier post...care to have a bash at it?

[Samsuka]

Hi Paul,

I still haven't been home yet so can't but as soon as i do i will post it back up.

Zoe i can understand your frustration, but you tend to learn from your mistakes, i am sure you made one or two in your time. My tenant still does not have an inkling i want her out so i should be able to change my tenancy agreement OK. We get on quite well anyway so it should be alright.

At the end of the day her kid goes to school in the area and she wants to stay so is not likely to avoid paying her rent until i try and evict her, so i need to make sure that i have sorted out all of these things before i try to do so, hence why i am in this forum. If i have problems sorting out my AST i will leave her in there and my sister in law and her mates can get somewhere else.

I agree about the council re-housing thing as well, i am hoping she gets a job again soon so that she can bring herself back up to speed on the rent and make the process easier. At the end of the day i don't have to evict her, i only want to, so as long as she continues paying rent, and if i can get the agreement sorted out i should be OK.

Paul i will have the details up for you soon, thanks for the help. From what i can remember there is one signed copy, of which i gave her a copy, but i will also check this.

Sam

[Samsuka]

Hi guys,

Problem pretty much solved. She signed and dated an amended copy of the contract with the finish date in so start to finish are 6-months.

We may still have a problem turfing her out, but i aim to give her 2-months notice so hopefully she will leave on her own accord. The best exscuse is probably to tell her we are selling the house, she doesn't get on with my sister in law so telling her she is moving down there will probably be more hassle.

Thanks for all the great advice, i am certainly learning the curve and i am in much better shape having consulted you guys

Hopefully i won't be back here in 3 months time asking you more advice :-)

Thanks

Sam

[P.Pilcher]

Just make sure that your section 21 notice is correctly worded and served. If not and you have to get a possession order from the court the judge will throw out your application then you will have to serve another, correctly worded one giving, of course, a further two months notice!

P.P.

[zoe]

You don't need an excuse for giving notice. But you must make sure that you issue it correctly.

Zoe

[lawstudent]

Paul, you say, "you can add in the "end date" retrospectively as she wouldn't be able to verify that it wasn't there in the first place"

But what would be the point? One would not be able to claim it as a valid document in court, after all, as that would be perjury.

Now surely you wouldn't be recommending that, Paul. Would you?

[Paul_f]

Ha! Not suggesting what I posted was legal but a solution that could possibly not be proven by the tenant if the landlord had her wits about her, in which case it wouldn't be perjury because at best it's one person's word against the other.

Unfortunately I've just read Samsuka's post stating that the tenant had "........... signed and dated an amended copy of the contract with the finish date in so start to finish are 6-months."

If that's the case and the "amendment" to the exisiting AST has been dated retrospectively then it "shall be of no consequence" as it clearly shows that the document has been altered, or if a new one was drawn up with the original dates it's therefore no longer "effective in possession" and the original takes precedence.

I now doubt very much if Samsuka will get her possession using the S.21 route when the time comes should the tenant take advice.

Such is the naivity if the amateur landlord that they will keep making similar mistakes such as this rather then pay somebody who knows what they are doing which is much more cost effective in the long term.

[Samsuka]

Very true Paul, but making these silly mistakes will certainly make us more experienced landlords in the future. You learn by making mistakes unfortunately. I do actually have a friend who advises me, but even he can't check to see that i get the form filled in properly like i should.

An estate agent friend of mine made a very good point that i am surprised many of you did not make. If the council is paying her full rent to her on a monthly basis in the intention that it comes to me, she cannot withhold it because all i have to do is inform the council that she is not paying me the money they are paying her, putting her in much more serious trouble with them. So he feels that i am actually in a stronger position than i was when she was working in regards to getting my last months' rent. She might not leave easily but at least she has to pay her rent in full every month if she doesn't, giving me more time to get rid of her.

So hopefully it won't come to having to evict her using an S.21 and she will go quietly

Thanks

Sam

[zoe]

An estate agent friend of mine made a very good point that i am surprised many of you did not make. If the council is paying her full rent to her on a monthly basis in the intention that it comes to me, she cannot withhold it because all i have to do is inform the council that she is not paying me the money they are paying her, putting her in much more serious trouble with them

how wrong you are !!! What do you think the council will do ?

1) they will stop her payments
2) she will stop payments to you
3) you will have to evict !!! Whichs costs YOU money.

Her being in trouble with the councul does not ensure that you get paid !!!!

[Samsuka]

I am assuming that they will also look at stopping her other payments such as child benefit, welfare etc. and it jeopardises her chance of receiving these payments in the future, so i at least think she is more likely to pay me under the threat of losing all of her money and not being able to get anywhere else because the council won't pay her rent. The council doesn't tend to look smilingly on fraudsters.

So its either pay me and keep me happy or cope with a lot of grief from myself and the council and not receive any money. I am assuming she will go for the lesser of the two. I am pretty sure this would also aid my case in getting her evicted if i ever have to go to court. It will also benefit if we have to go to the small claims court to recover any rent. As i said though, hopefully it will never get to this stage but i thought it was a good piece of information for other landlords in a similar situation to me.

Thanks for the constructive advice though Zoe!!

[curmudgeon]

Child benefit and supplementary benefit etc are paid under statute law as modified by regulations regarding amounts, etc. Firstly, the local council doesn't pay them, and secondly by not paying her creditors, whoever they may be, does not override statute law giving her entitlement to welfare benefits.

I't generally not wise to act based on assumptions of what you hope will happen!

[Jennifer_M]

And if I may add, if a mother had to choose between feeding her kids and paying the rent, I can bet you she'd feed her kids first, no matter the consequences.

I know it may not be in the LLs interests but threatening a woman with this (whether it would hapen or not) because she pays her rent 1 or 2 weeks late every month (but still pays it) is a bit nasty in my eyes.

[Andy Parker]

samsuka - why don't you just tell your tenant that you want to be paid directly by the council?With the tenant's agreement the council should do this.

[Samsuka]

Jennifer i am happy for her to pay her rent late, this is all just conjecture in case she decides to stop paying her rent after i ask her to move out. I would never want her to stop feeding her kids, the point is if the council is paying her rent as well as the myriad of other payments she receives as a single mother then i should be receiving it, she shouldn't be pocketing it. She won't be happy when i try to evict her (she is also quite rude, regularly has full volume slanging matches with her teenage daughter and constantly have kids hanging around our house to either bully or be friends with her daughter so i think i would want her out anyway, the disadvantage about renting out a flat you live above i guess). I promise i am not a miserly old LL trying to extort my tenant, on the contrary i bend over backwards for her, but am looking for good advice on what might happen, as well as pick up some valuable tips from the more experienced landlords on the site. But the fact that she has never paid me on time and in full but is always late paying the remainder means it will probably get worse before it gets better.

Curmudgeon thanks for the good advice, it was just conjecture, i am glad you cleared it up.

Andy Parker, i looked into this and talked to the council but i was advised against this option because if she gets a job and doesn't tell the council and they then find out and she has to pay back money, i have to pay the money back because i received it directly. Its a bit of a risk and i don't want the council knocking on my door and asking for money after she has gone!!

Thanks

Sam

[zoe]

Samsuka

your view of the world is very small.

1) The council do not have powers to stop any benefits that the tenant might be entitled to aparts from the council and housing benefit.
2) if you have to go tp court to evict her it will cost you money.
3) how do you think a small claims award would help if she had no money ?
4) her being on housing benefit does not increase your chances of being paid.
5) You are correct in not allowing the council to pay directly though, they might *try* and recover monies from you !!!

Zoe

[Samsuka]

Zoe,

It would be nice to receive one piece of advice from you without an insult attached or by trying to demean my questions.

I appreciate that i am new to this game, hence why i am here, and i repeatedly state that i am here to learn about all of this. This is supposed to be a friendly forum where Landlords can ask for and offer friendly advice, not somewhere i go to be slagged off because i don't have experience.

To your points

1) i did not realise this, it was conjecture on my part and curmudgeon kindly pointed out the answer.
2) i know evicting her will cost money, i am here to deal with the problem ahead so that hopefully i don't have to do this and the process is made easier for both of us. I don't want to have to forceably evict her, but i do want to know what happens if i have to, and well in advance.
3) Because she has no money now does not mean she won't in the future. It is just an avenue that i did not know about before. I don't know she has no money, all i know is she is not paying it to me if she does and is on housing benefit.
4) Her being on housing benefit does increase my chance of paying because the council will remove this if i am not being paid, so she can't get away with withholding it for herself. And the prospect of not receiving housing benefit in the future might make her think twice about it. My friend an estate agent who is a multiple land lord knows this to be true, and it makes sense.

Try and give some advice without making little comments, i realise i don't have the experience you do, hence why i am here. The amateur landlords may frustrate you but they exist anyway, i am sure you made a mistake or two at the start as well. How else do i learn but by asking questions? No matter how silly they are.

Thanks

Sam

[zoe]

Samsuka

It's not your questoins it is your presumptions !!

I am not a LL, but if I decided to take up ANY business venture you can be sure I would do investigations before hand. What I don't understand is why people beleive that being a LL is easy money and attempt to do so without so much as any advice or research. The LL is essentially loaning the tenant an asset worth £1000's and could loose out big time if things go wrong.

You have however been given some good advice now and I trust you will keep coming back to this site.

Zoe