Lambeth LBC's HMO policies/procedures- you too?

[Shelford]

I have HMO's in the London Borough of Lambeth. Am currently struggling blindly through the HMO licencing process. Would dearly love to talk to anyone else in Lambeth who has been through it, or is going through it.

[ah84]

Is lambeth worse than any other council? I think we are all struggling whatever the council!!

[red40]

Am currently struggling blindly through the HMO licencing process.

If you can elaborate on what the problems are you may well get the assistance you are after. Is it the application form you are having problems with or the HMO property as a whole?

[Shelford]

Thankyou. The details are that I have medium sized Victorian terraced houses, of which there are thousands of identical design in Lambeth. They have 2 floors at the front with high ceilings and a through ground floor reception. At the back the ceilings are lower and they have a second floor comprising one bedroom and a bathroom. The back is often referred to as the 'back extention' and the style of house is often known as a 'Clapham House'. I am letting them as 5 bed houses by using the ground floor reception rooms as bedrooms and the master bedroom as a living room.

I have applied for and paid for my HMO licences and am being asked to install a fire alarm with control panel and call points, emergency lighting, fire doors throughout and possible cellar protection works. The number and nature of the equipment installed appears to be open to sensible interpretation.

There must be 100 landlords in Lambeth with this type of property, going through, or been through HMO licencing. I feel sure that some of those landlords would be keen to hear about my negotiations with the local authority and I would certainly be keen to hear about theirs. I appreciate that this is not a local forum. Forgive me for using it as such.

[bagpuss]

It sounds like you are being asked to do this because the habitable rooms in your house are spread over three floors. We had a similar problem with one of our houses; there was an attic room which, if we let out, would mean we had 5 (or more) bedrooms over three floors and that put us into a different category than if we had 5 (or less) bedrooms over two floors. The fire regulations became much more stringent if you had either 6 bedrooms and/or three floors.

We got around the problem by not letting out the attic room and keeping it just for storage. As long as we didn't let out the 3rd floor as a habitable room we could stay in the lower category and wouldn't need to upgrade our fire precautions to the higher standard. We do still have quite extensive fire safety in place such as wired in fire alarms/heat detectors, all the rooms have either tilt and turn windows or fire doors and we have fire extinguishers & fire notices etc.

How much you end up doing will depend on how many bedrooms you feel you need to let out and what the regs are in your particular area. They all vary.

[Shelford]

If any London and especially Lambeth landlords come late to this thread, I would still be very pleased to hear from them. I am about half way through the licencing process without ever having spoken to another local landlord. It would have been so much easier if we were in touch.

[irfan1001]

Hi Shelford, I am in the process of licensing afew properties I own in Lambeth, one is very similar to yours.

How did you get on? did you manage to secure your license in the end?

The works I am having done seem in line with what they have requested for you to do.

On one of the properties I am going use their room guidelines to get 9 rooms with cooking facilities and ensuite toilet/shower rooms, all 17 metres squared or more, the property was used like this in the past, and I am just refurbishing it, and going to get licensing.

For the other property, I am trying to get 9 en suite rooms and 2 normal rooms with communal kitchen areas.

Was is easy to get the certificate for lawful development for you from the planning office? or did you need to obtain planning permission?

I would be grateful for any advice you have in dealing with the housing officers involved in issueing the HMO License.

[irfan1001]

If anyone has any experience of obtaining HMO licensing in:

Southwark
Brent
Lambeth
Camden
Newham

I would be really interested to hear about your experiences as well as give you information on what I have experienced there.

[Shelford]

Ok Irfan, I can only talk about HMO's and FRA's. I have undertaken no refurbishment and dont need the CLD that you mention. I have to say that I dont find the Council's helpful, but we would need to email privately to explore this. As an ex local authority officer, I am aware that things can get very busy and you have to deal with overiding principles rather than underlying detail sometimes, just to keep your head above water. This, of course, is not what you and I need and it means we have to go elsewhere to find out the detail.

In my case, what I did find helped with the detail was information I read in the LLAS (London Landlord Accreditation Scheme) Magazine about a company willing to give advice about fire safety stuff and produce FRA's (Fire Risk Assessments), so I spoke to them and then paid them to do just that. I found that the FRA's, one for each property, broke the log jam of conflicting information in my pea sized brain and pointed a clear way forward. A good FRA is quite hard to dismiss, so if it recommends a heavyweight fire alarm with control panel and call points everywhere, then you are are probably going to have to do that. However, if it recommends a simple 'Part 6, grade D or E' system, then that is probably what you need, even if the local authority says otherwise. The FRA will also prescibe requirements for extinguishers, emerg' lights, fire doors etc..

You may not be at the stage where you need FRA's just yet, but if you are, I am happy to recommend a commercial provider.

[irfan1001]

Hi Shelford

I have had the FRA done yesterday, I had it during the construction phase so that whilst the work in going on I can add in bits and pieces that need to be done.

They recommended a more heavy duty fire alarm then I had expected, and indeed budgetted for. However cleared up all the doubts I had and left me feeling confident that we could satisfy the local environmental/housing inspector when he comes.

I see that you mention that you didnt need to get a CDL as you were doing no refurbishment, does that mean you can get the license without the CDL? I was told that as soon as you apply to license an HMO the housing office contacts the planning office to let them know your intention and that the planning office then checks to see if you have planning permission. In most cases where you don't you then need a CDL before a license is issued. But if this isnt the case and a license is obtainable without a CDL or planning permission this would be fantastic..

Have you managed to get your license now?

[Shelford]

Irfan
I feel a bit out of my depth with respect to Certs' of Lawful Developement, as I am letting family houses in their original layout, with no conversion or refurbishment whatsoever. I am quite sure I dont need a CLD and have never applied for one. In fact, had never heard of one, until you mentioned it.

I now have a provisional HMO licence and have submitted my FRA and am hoping a full licence will be issued in the next week or two. The licence will be issued on the understanding that I will carry out the works recommended by the Fire Risk Assessment. It has taken 2 years to get this far, as I made my initial licence application in July 2006. Phew, Im knackered man!

Very best wishes with yours.

[obiindy]

it sounds like they are asking you to install an LD2 fire alarm, this has sounders in all bedrooms and on the escape route etc, smoke detectors call points and in the kitchen a heat detector, u will also need to have emergency lighting as well all that costs between £2000 - £3000, you will also need extinguisers, exit signs, fire blankets etc, i presume you know you need self closing fire doors with intrumescent strips. On 2 floors i think you need an LD1 this is a lot cheaper but it all depends on number of floors and number of rooms, just download the Lambeth HMO guidelines or better still get one of the HMO tean to come round and tell you what you need, im as we speak having an LD2 instaled in a 6 bedder in Newport across 3 floors.